A&H

Open Age an incident to discuss that a friend had just a week ago

ref craig

RefChat Addict
Level 5 Referee
one of my friends that had an incident he was on the line and was the linesman in this match that got in the middle of this brawl in the midlands regional league stripes vs blue. I want to open a discussion about this you tube video to see the positives and negatives and what we can learn from it
 
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First thing that immedietly springs to mind is, why did the AR decide to get amongst it all? Personally i brief assistants to stay well clear and be my eyes and ears, incase i miss anything. As the saying goes, " dont go looking for trouble, as it will find you easy enough anyway"
 
ok now what would you say of course as this is what we said last night at our ra meeting that his gut took over and that what he did was what his gut was telling him to do as the assistant coach was getting on that linesman back so he tried to get in to stop him from getting their but it was to late so that why that happened
 
Have you ever seen Highlander the Series, from season four onwards? The titles include the following lines...

"I am a Watcher, part of a secret organisation of men and women, who observe and record, but never interfere."

This is the approach to take. Whether the coach or anyone from the bench is getting on someone's back, stay out. Observe, record and report.

Two important considerations:

1: What are you really going to achieve by getting in there? Other players try and break them up, Leave 'em to it.

2: You're as likley to get hit as anyone else getting in there. Wearing black puts a bullseye on your back in those situations.
 
and that's what id a done in that situation as I always say work as a team get the job done
 
It does look like the AR has travelled a bit of a distance to get there, and was trying to keep the substituted player out of it, but, as has been said - let the players slug it out, sort it out between themselves, and just make sure the officials as a team watch, record and then punish.

One question though, the blue player, from the bench (I'm not sure if he was waiting to come on as sub, or had been subbed off earlier) the ref sends him to the stands - couldn't he have been shown a red card as well?
 
Right decision to remove both 8 and 2. 8 is the one who commits the ridiculous challenge which for me is red for SFP. Then 2 comes across all guns blazing and IMO causes the mass confrontation or at least ignites it to a brawl! Hopefully they both get long suspensions along with the staff who continued the fighting.
With regards to the NAR who got involved the other week I was acting as an NAR and I was advised that if I felt I could stop someone getting involved and escalating the situation then to do so but only if I don't compromise my SAFETY!
 
I've watched it a few times to get an idea for key moments where a different approach could have been taken by the entire team in order to either avoid or contain what had happened. Of course, this has been done with the benefit of hindsight and, so, it will seem overly critical but we can use this as a learning experience to see like situations in our own matches that will hopefully avoid situations like this.

The first thing is between seconds three where the striped player feels he's been fouled, looks to the AR and the ref and you can hear a loud "****ing hell ref!" either from the sideline or the crowd, I can't tell which, and the fifth second where the blue number ten takes a bit of a liberty with the thrower. This would have been a good indication that the temperature of the match was getting pretty high and the referee should have communicated with his assistants that it was time to take control. The AR should have spoken to the players directly in front of him (striped who thought he got fouled and was pretty upset and the three or four blue players who were around him -- obviously a potential hot spot) and the referee should have made clear to the striped player that these chippy little hip thrusts weren't on today as it was immediately in front of him and there was a clear frustration there as well. To my mind, taking control here (even if it meant giving a trifling little foul like the push out) would have been enough to stamp his authority and could have avoided the next five minutes.

Twenty seconds later, there is a shocking two-footed, jumping tackle by blue that could have been avoided with a free kick to white second earlier, in my opinion. Nonetheless, we all make mistakes and miss a few things so we're here. The referee is in position to see the oncoming challenge (which he should have recognized earlier given the speed with which the blue player was running in and the elevated temperature of the match) and made damn certain to sprint towards the place instead of the leisurely jog he took to get parallel. If you don't just know something's coming here, than I don't know what -- it was palpable while watching a video, I can only imagine how tense it was on the pitch at the time. Had he been closer, he could have hit the whistle much harder and used his voice to say he was there and was going to deal with it. Doing so, he would have had the red out of his pocket in a quick hurry and the player would have been off. No need for the fight, no need for the subsequent **** storm. When the tackle is made, it looks like the ref has begun what was by all accounts a slow run to the spot and then when the camera comes back, he seems to be awfully far away from the place considering that the two players are now squared up to one another.

To me, it looks like he's resigned to the fact that there's going to be a brawl and so he gets into place for that. My suggestion would have been to get in there and defuse the two players at the heart of it all and then moved out as players started rushing in. He should have been on the spot at 26 seconds (well, earlier if you take my advice in the last paragraph) and he should have had the red out of his pocket and the player sent off. He didn't, and he went to a position to try and triangulate with his team as he was, as I said, resigned to a brawl. He goes to the right position for triangulation, and his far assistant seems to be getting there -- in his own time, mind, but getting there. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, the near assistant doesn't think that triangulation is what's happening here and he gets to the spot of the foul (where the referee should have been about ten seconds ago!) to try and diffuse the situation.

firstclip29secs.png


By now, we're at 42 seconds where the AR is exactly in the middle of the brawl (in other words, completely useless), the referee is circling the incident because he has nearly no help and the other AR, who was on his way to triangulate, has decided to stop at centre to deal with three players who are not likely to start throwing punches at any point. Where should he be? Just about opposite the referee, where there is a second group of players trying to use his voice to calm that down and keep an eye on that just in case that erupts into more than it already is. At 45 seconds, I cringe because an expensive beep flag is dropped on the ground and stepped on several times.

secondclip42secs.png


Skip ahead (noting only that the referee's whistling is good, strong and consistent but he should add in his voice perhaps more than he does) to 1.54. The referee relies on advice from the Assistant Referees who were either dealing with non-starter issues or smack dab in the centre of it all which is a bit silly given that the advice they can give came from a bad position on the field of play. He sends off two players, I can't really keep track of who is who among the issue but I'm not certain that he's actually ever sent off the player who committed the first tackle! I'd have sent the tackler off, another player from blue was at the heart of it all and a player from white as well (probably the one who got tackled and decided to square up in the first place). Therefore, both teams have been evenly punished for the brawl, and the blue team has been punished for the hideous tackle. To me, at that point justice has been served.

The whole situation, in my mind was mishandled from the get-go and should have been dealt with much better. It was an avoidable situation, in the end. Oh and thanks for reading this essay. I look forward to discussion.
 
It was no.8 who committed the foul and gets sent off as he stands up after giving the old "I didn't do anything" and this is an evo stick northern game to my knowledge there isn't a 4th official
 
To my knowledge, you only begin to get 4th officials in League 2 (Football League), and upwards. I go to a football match every weekend, from a range of different leagues, Conference National, Conference North, Football League,Evo Stick North, and Premier League. And I have only ever seen 4th officials in the Football League and Premier League *and conference national. In the lower leagues, the club completes subs, and the linesman just runs up to check equipment, and allows the substitution. Each club has their own board to hold up. Just a little input into 4th officials! You may also get them in finals, for example in the games thread, one member said that they where going to be a 4th Official at a semi-final, or final, I can't remember.
 
Oh yes, sorry they do. I now remember seeing one the other week when I went to a conference national match. Sorry about that.
 
Well it's really no problem, this could have been dealt with by the three of them, although a fourth would have made things much easier.
 
I agree. It could have been sorted, and the whole brawl thing avoided.
 
In mass confrontations like that, it's always the best idea for the team to create a triangle around the incident using their eyes and ears while trying to put out small fires happening in their vicinity, noting offending players to be sanctioned and carrying out these sanctions after the situation has calmed down. The 3 of them have things they can pick out for improvement on this incident in my opinion.

For me the Ref doesn't do nearly enough early on in the melee to calm things down. Standing watching the situation from a distance while blasting the whistle clearly was having no effect. The far side lino doesn't get anywhere near close enough to help with the situation and pick out offenders, and as a result becomes a useless entity when they converse at the end of the scrap. The nearest lino has good intentions of limiting the violence, but is too over-zealous in this attempt and ends up getting lost and becoming invisible in the middle, surely limiting his ability to see what is happening. Having said that, he does the best job of getting there quickly and getting information to give to the referee, and is useful in the situation nonetheless.

In my opinion though, they do well to get all the dismissals correct. They get the original offender (absolutely disgraceful challenge), the person who ignites it further (No2 of the striped team getting in his face and looked to have a couple of swings at him in the scrap) and even more impressively, dismissing the coach who becomes aggresive and violent toward the stripes No2. Would have maybe liked to have seen another couple of yellows for people needlessly getting involved, stipes No8 and No3 perhaps but getting the main offences was the most important thing.

So on paper I have to say that they have done a good job, but they all have development points to work on when dealing with this. Nice to see the pitch in pristine condition also especially at this time of the season...
 
58 seconds in and I've turned off. I cannot watch any longer, for fear of cringing further at the awful way it has been dealt with. As Ryan rightly says, this should have been dealt with long before it happened. The officials are L3 & L4 and should know better. I guarantee that the ref's pre-match instructions did not include telling his assistants to get in the middle of it.

There is no such excuse as 'gut instinct' in circumstances like this. He should know better and deal with it in a more appropriate manner (triangulated, as said numerous times already). I cringed at the referee first. Big, long, hard whistle and then sprint to the foul. Get in the middle of the two potential players (every SFP has potential to blow up, due to nature of challenge) and remove the offending player. Get the physio on (although, the injured player may have rolled off, so irrelevant) and then dismiss the player. Had he been more pro-active, this situation wouldn't have happened.

However, he didn't. Fine, now deal with it as a team. Senior AR, get a position left (as we look) of the melee as it means he is nearest the benches (anything blows up, he can see/deal). Ref will then go right (again, as we look) and the junior AR should, as already said, be closer but on the same 'line' he's walking towards.

Now, they may have got rid of the right players, I turned off before that, but I hope, for all their sakes, this was not under assessment. A horrendous team performance in the minute I watched and I'm still cringing at it. May bring myself to watch the rest after work later.
 
now what would you suggest then now learning from this for referees that am at grassroots level and don't hardly have nars with them as a next stepping point
 
and the guy that was sent to the stands he was the assistant coach that's why no card was shown
 
Craig - the same as before. Stay well clear. Observe. Record. Deal with it when it dies down.

By standing back you allow the players to settle it themselves. Most will be pulling team mates out and away.

By standing back you can see the following:
  • Who attempts to hit whom.
  • The genuine peacemakers.
  • The one who trys to stir things up to get someone sent off.
  • The player who runs in from miles away to get involved, possibly with a cheapshot (usually the goal keeper).
  • If the coaches, club ARs etc get involved.
  • Anything else that needs a caution.
 
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