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richard ramjane

richard ramjane

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Minute 82 of the U15 game this morning .
Black / white v blue
Blue captain has been moaning all game about this and that , and I'd already spoken to him , you're the captain lead by example , watch your language , shortly followed by "he's all over me , this is a joke " Captain please calm down , that's enough , last I want to hear from you

Minute 82 so we're into stoppage and he's run across a player and there's a clash of boots , he goes over. No dive and no attempted tackle so I wave away his appeal and carry on following play .
I can hear him behind me now going mental so ball goes out and I call him back to administer the caution , but as I am explaining to him why he's going in the book he then tells me to my face that " this is a piss take "
My response was " well done , you've now converted your yellow into a red " and off he went .
However this triggered off the blue teams AR who squared up to black/ white manager , All I saw was them squaring up but didn't hear any of the conversation .
One was saying he had been offered out in the car park , and said to me I'll see him and if he's in hospital after then it's your fault .
Now I hadn't heard anything I was too far away , so I told the manager to behave and that I wanted someone else on the line so as to avoid any further incident.
I had players shouting at me to hurry up , and I felt a little overwhelmed if I'm honest .
Not sure whether to put any misconduct through as the manager and AR shook hands after and all was ok
I'm still shaking my head that I had to deal with the blue captain ( and not sure if straight red was correct ... I was going with OFFINABUS as the comment was made directly at me ) as blue were winning , one minute left to play there was no need for it .

The other thing that annoyed me was when I spoke to the managers before the kick off , blue manager said , "im a level 5 and an assessor , but don't worry just do your job "
I said well done , I will but I also don't expect to hear a peep out of you , And to be fair he was good as gold and said I'd managed things well . Just annoyed me that he felt he had to even mention it
Roll on tomorrow ...
 
The Referee Store
I think that is a very harsh red card. The comment "this is a piss take" isn't personalised (he hasn't said "you're a piss take"...and for me it is very low down on the offensive word scale....i wouldn't have dismissed for that unless it was screamed at point blank range into my face....said at normal conversational volume, never a red card.

"Trips or attempts to trip".......could the other player have avoided the contact? Just because there is no attempted challenge doesn't mean that there is no foul. If the other player had ran into the heels of the blue player, he wouldn't necessarily be making a challenge but if he tripped the player it would still be a foul....wouldn't it?

When you say "going mental" what was he saying that made you think he had crossed a line into dissent?

Maybe an earlier caution for the "joke" comment would have prevented the later incident?
 
RegalRef said:
What a jerk.

'Don't worry mate, the thought of a Level 5 or assessor who must have as many free Saturday's as you to run a football team really wouldn't worry me'
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Believe it or not, very little assessing to be done on a saturday morning, as most youth games do not count towards promotion.
 
Padfoot said:
I think that is a very harsh red card. The comment "this is a piss take" isn't personalised (he hasn't said "you're a piss take"...and for me it is very low down on the offensive word scale....i wouldn't have dismissed for that unless it was screamed at point blank range into my face....said at normal conversational volume, never a red card.

"Trips or attempts to trip".......could the other player have avoided the contact? Just because there is no attempted challenge doesn't mean that there is no foul. If the other player had ran into the heels of the blue player, he wouldn't necessarily be making a challenge but if he tripped the player it would still be a foul....wouldn't it?

When you say "going mental" what was he saying that made you think he had crossed a line into dissent?

Maybe an earlier caution for the "joke" comment would have prevented the later incident?
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Yeah possibly harsh hence I've posted here for some feedback , but I took it personally as the piss take comment was his opinion on my decision to take his name in the first place . Indirectly he was saying I was doing the piss taking ... Piss as a word is very low down on the scale of things , it was just the intent , it was fairly aggressive and not meant as banter in any way shape or form .

The trip incident I was happy with what I saw. Black and white player was stationary and blue ran across him to intercept a ball and his run caused the clash of feet and he went over. Is that a foul ?

Going mental ... Hmm well I'd warned him previously that I didn't want to hear any more from him , so when I turned down his appeal for the foul I didn't really expect to hear " Jesus Christ ref he's been all over me all game ! You've got to do something about it , right that's it I'm going to sort it out "

And what else , yes the joke comment , yes I think an earlier card for that was in hindsight what was needed , and would probably have , like you say , prevented the later incident
It was weird though , as the joke comment was in minute 78 ,there'd been literally no fouls in the game , (even level 5 matey commented as such ! Bless him ) not a bad word spoken but blue captain felt like he had to have a moan all of a sudden

So much to learn ... Me I mean :)
 
I personally wouldn't have produced a red for what you describe Richard. It sounds like you were simply fed up to the back teeth with this kid and momentarily allowed your anger to dictate your decision-making process (?)

My response, after hearing him say "this is a piss take" would have been something along the lines of:

"Okay, that's it. Don't say anything else. ONE MORE WORD kiddo and it's a second yellow and you're off!!".

The trouble I find with most players who commit any dissent offence is that as soon as you've blown your whistle and put your hand in your pocket to pull the obvious card out, they seem to think that that then gives them carte blanche authority to just carry on ripping into you or gobbing off because they're already getting a yellow for it. I nip it in the bud straight away. My first red issued this season was for a dissent yellow who thought he could carry on gobbing off at me in spite of 2 warnings followed by a "last warning" to shut up and not interrupt me whilst undergoing the cautioning process. The sheer stupidity of the average footballer never fails to astound me. :cool:
 
Kes said:
I personally wouldn't have produced a red for what you describe Richard. It sounds like you were simply fed up to the back teeth with this kid and momentarily allowed your anger to dictate your decision-making process (?)

My response, after hearing him say "this is a piss take" would have been something along the lines of:

"Okay, that's it. Don't say anything else. ONE MORE WORD kiddo and it's a second yellow and you're off!!".

The trouble I find with most players who commit any dissent offence is that as soon as you've blown your whistle and put your hand in your pocket to pull the obvious card out, they seem to think that that then gives them carte blanche authority to just carry on ripping into you or gobbing off because they're already getting a yellow for it. I nip it in the bud straight away. My first red issued this season was for a dissent yellow who thought he could carry on gobbing off at me in spite of 2 warnings followed by a "last warning" to shut up and not interrupt me whilst undergoing the cautioning process. The sheer stupidity of the average footballer never fails to astound me. :cool:
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Yeah thanks @Kes , I'd already issued the warning a few minutes earlier , which I thought would do the trick and yes , it was a case of that I think. He must've thought , oh I'm getting cautioned so I might as well gob off a bit more and get my money's worth ...

Ah well what's done is done , I'll take it on board and log it as something learned ...
To add to my annoyance I've just had the black/white manager text me to say don't put the red card through ! I mean, please ... Sigh
 
richard ramjane said:
Yeah thanks @Kes , I'd already issued the warning a few minutes earlier , which I thought would do the trick and yes , it was a case of that I think. He must've thought , oh I'm getting cautioned so I might as well gob off a bit more and get my money's worth ...

Ah well what's done is done , I'll take it on board and log it as something learned ...
To add to my annoyance I've just had the black/white manager text me to say don't put the red card through ! I mean, please ... Sigh
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Just a thought.....you do know that if you feel you have been too harsh with a dismissal (not this one per se but any red card you show) you can include that fact in your report (or contact your discipline manager) and it may change the outcome for the player.

Likewise if a player approaches you at the end of the match and apologises for their conduct which led to a dismissal, i would always include that in my report.
 
Padfoot said:
Just a thought.....you do know that if you feel you have been too harsh with a dismissal (not this one per se but any red card you show) you can include that fact in your report (or contact your discipline manager) and it may change the outcome for the player.

Likewise if a player approaches you at the end of the match and apologises for their conduct which led to a dismissal, i would always include that in my report.
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I didn't know that @Padfoot , appreciate that thank you ... What I'll do is think it over a bit more and then see if any other feedback is forthcoming and do my report on Monday
Also how about the misconduct issue between AR and manager ? Worthy of a mention ? With a side note that they both shook hands after the game ? Or just not mention at all ?
 
@richard ramjane you did well instead of converting it into a straight red you could of gone there's your first yellow and there is your second yellow red for dissent by word again county might downgrade it to second yellow red and that be end keep us informed
 
What was the first caution for? The captain "going mental behind you" or the "clash of boots"?
I also think that the red sounds super harsh as described, even a second yellow seems excessive.
That said, it is very important to not make idle "threats" so it is good that you did take action.

But... and I like to analyse... I learn from this that that's the "last I want to hear from you" does not seem like a good instruction, particularly to a captain.

What are the good "calm down" and "thin ice" phrases would work here?
 
santa sangria said:
What was the first caution for? The captain "going mental behind you" or the "clash of boots"?
I also think that the red sounds super harsh as described, even a second yellow seems excessive.
That said, it is very important to not make idle "threats" so it is good that you did take action.

But... and I like to analyse... I learn from this that that's the "last I want to hear from you" does not seem like a good instruction, particularly to a captain.

What are the good "calm down" and "thin ice" phrases would work here?
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First (and what was going to be the only ) caution was for him going mental after having previously been told not to say anything more , having previously been told to behave like a captain and not swear and moan ,
I refer to it as an isolated incident as it all occurred within a 7 minute period but as has already been mentioned maybe a yellow at first occurrence would have been preferable

Clash of boots was never an offence for me either way btw just a coming together
 
ref craig said:
@richard ramjane you did well instead of converting it into a straight red you could of gone there's your first yellow and there is your second yellow red for dissent by word again county might downgrade it to second yellow red and that be end keep us informed
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I agree with this I think. Obviously if you showed a straight red, that's what you have to put through, but the incident as described sounds like a 2xYC situation to me - one for the dissent you were already planning to give and another for dissenting your decision to caution him! And I believe that carries only a standard 1 match suspension, as opposed to the 3 that he'd get for OFFINBUS?

I don't know what @Padfoot would suggest regarding suggesting a "downgrade" in your report, but it might be worth considering?
 
richard ramjane said:
The other thing that annoyed me was when I spoke to the managers before the kick off , blue manager said , "im a level 5 and an assessor , but don't worry just do your job "
I said well done , I will but I also don't expect to hear a peep out of you , And to be fair he was good as gold and said I'd managed things well . Just annoyed me that he felt he had to even mention it...
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Not sure why this annoyed you. Especially as he handled himself in a manner befitting his grade and roles.

When this happens to me (which it does occasionally) I just make light of it with a "great! good to have someone else who actually knows the laws of the game here today" (Ho Ho!). The only real thing their revelation does is mark that person out for no mercy if they don't behave in the manner expected of a refereeing colleague. :D

Just let it wash over you.
 
SM said:
Not sure why this annoyed you. Especially as he handled himself in a manner befitting his grade and roles.
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This is only my own opinion mind but......

He had no need to mention it. He was there as a coach, not a referee. It was a case of one-upmanship on his part and nothing more.
He might as well have said "Oh and by the way mate, because I happen to be a Level 5 ref and assessor, it more than likely means that any decision you make that I contest or disagree with from the sidelines - you're probably wrong and it should probably undermine your authority and/or confidence - no pressure"...... ;)

Any smug coach who tells me he's a ref and assessor before a match will get the stock response from me:

"Not today you're not mate - you're a coach". :p

Besides, he may have been bullshitting anyway. No way of knowing...... ;)
 
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