The Ref Stop

Abusive spectator turns up as a team official

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Thought I had the above blocked but sadly not

The answer is B, although I have never experienced CAR

So next week same thing yet your referee pal is not feeling great, or has plans later on, or for whatever reason, cannot help you with your game. In the name of consistancy you cant pick and choose. Why should one week the team end up with Phil Sharp on the line because the referee is struggling and Phil is just passing by, but the next there is no Mr Sharp so you are only left with the fair answer...B
 
The Ref Stop
A Freethinker said:
Ok scenario here, you are doing a match a particularly contentious one lots going on and aggro because CAR giving every decision his teams way, which is getting to boiling point, with quite a few heated exchanges taking place and about to spill over and you want the CAR replaced for match control reasons, however no other person willing to do it. You notice a referee colleague who you know and trust who could help you out, would you -

a) continue using the CAR until it ends up in a full on riot?
b) tell the CAR to do one and say you will call the line yourself?
c) ask the colleague to take over?

I know what I would do and I know what my friends would do. Appointed or not if I see a fellow ref struggling I would step in to help out and have done.

As for being lumped by someone whether a match official or not quick call to Mr Plod either way, end of story.

Oh and how many people on here do CAR for other referees, they aren't appointed by the Association, they may be asked by a colleague to help out as they know them etc!
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Fair points but in your example the referee is asking for the support not having it thrust upon him at the whim of another official (nothing against OP, its in your guidance, so be it).
Secondly, from reading the guidance this can only be done in situations of NAR at the finals stages.
 
It is a crazy system, but if that's how it works where the OP is then so be it.

I think that in your capacity as fourth you were correct to deal with the spectator/coach. However, it is not your place to dismiss someone from the technical area, only the referee can do that.

I do however agree with other posters that another referee appointing themselves to a match, as fourth for example, because they think the officiating team are struggling undermines them.

I personally think it could also slow their development. I think that we, as referees, learn more from our hard matches. You said in this example that AR1 was struggling to control the technical area, but how will she learn if someone jumps in when she is have trouble?
 
zarathustra said:
You said in this example that AR1 was struggling to control the technical area, but how will she learn if someone jumps in when she is have trouble?
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She learns by watching an experienced referee deal with the situation and how to handle it? The same way we all learn from other referees or watching things or our Association meetings. Not all learning is through experiencing the situation, we all take tips etc from discussions on here and we all learn.
 
A Freethinker said:
She learns by watching an experienced referee deal with the situation and how to handle it? The same way we all learn from other referees or watching things or our Association meetings. Not all learning is through experiencing the situation, we all take tips etc from discussions on here and we all learn.
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True, but whilst acting as an AR she won't necessarily be able to see how the fourth deals with something.

If a coach is kicking off and there is a fourth I would expect the AR to be up with play in the correct position concentrating on what is happening on the field not getting involved with what is happening in the TA unless required, such as substitutions etc.

Whilst I agree that watching how othe rofficials handle various situations is important, sometimes it's better to make a mistake and get advice on how to not make that same mistake again in the future.

But, it's horses for courses, and both approaches have their merits.
 
Everyone learns differently, aesthetic learning and all that psychology and so on

I learn by trying it and if its not working, I know not to do it again (not just in reffing but in life). Simply showing me how to do something is a waste of time because I want to do it, see it work my efforts, or see it fail ,so I know the correct way WAS the one I was shown

You only know as a kid to get to the toilet in time when you do end up soiling yourself. Your mum telling you that you need to go is not enough. Thus, in this instance, someone dealing with something that I know I need to be dealing with is not going to help me learn

however if it worked for said parties then great.
 
In this scenario I would suggest that a young female referee may have benefited from a more experienced referee taking charge and control of what appears to be an unsavoury incident. The young ref may be influenced by the constant abuse etc or even worse put off refereeing for good. However the experienced referee being could have reassured her and ultimately shown her she didn't have to take or listen to the abuse. We won't know unless the other officials involved make comments.
 
A Freethinker said:
Ok scenario here, you are doing a match a particularly contentious one lots going on and aggro because CAR giving every decision his teams way, which is getting to boiling point, with quite a few heated exchanges taking place and about to spill over and you want the CAR replaced for match control reasons, however no other person willing to do it. You notice a referee colleague who you know and trust who could help you out, would you -

a) continue using the CAR until it ends up in a full on riot?
b) tell the CAR to do one and say you will call the line yourself?
c) ask the colleague to take over?

I know what I would do and I know what my friends would do. Appointed or not if I see a fellow ref struggling I would step in to help out and have done.

As for being lumped by someone whether a match official or not quick call to Mr Plod either way, end of story.

Oh and how many people on here do CAR for other referees, they aren't appointed by the Association, they may be asked by a colleague to help out as they know them etc!
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No matter how qualified your colleague, they would only be acting as a CAR, nothing more than that. They wouldn't be coming on to act in any official capacity.

This is very different to appointing yourself as an authorised match official which it appears has happened in the OP?
 
I would suggest they helped out a colleague I don't think they were paid for it so it wasn't authorised, they stepped in to help out fellow refs who were struggling and personally (although never having been in the situation) if I was I would welcome help from an experienced official.

Competition rules allow for it...end off!
 
one said:
Ok. the appointment debate seems to have taken over the handling of the spectator/coach issue.

@RustyRef That may be so where you referee. But it is not the case in the particular circumstances I was in. Once appointed through the process mentioned, i am a match official the same as if I was appointed in prior by our 'appointments team'.

Here is how the process works in summary:

During the premiership season appointments can only by done by the appointments team. Any last minute changes or midway replacements (injury etc) can only be done with the approval of one of appointments committee members by phone, verbally or text.

The finals series starts after the premiership season and all games are sudden death. Due to its nature these games can get very heated. There are much fewer games in the finals series and played on only a few grounds with multiple fields. There are generally 4 game on each field in 4 time slots starting with the more junior/lower division games. All games are appointed a referee and 2 NARs and if known to be a 'problem game' a 4th. Some games can be appointed a 4th on the day if seen to be needed (like the one in OP). Some very late appointment changes can happen on the day due to necessity (eg, an AR calls in sick with short notice).

All officials who have games on the ground are encouraged to get there early and stay back after their game not only to support their colleagues but fill in if the need arises (obviously the are considerations on how many games can an official do).

Each ground is designated one or two 'Senior Officials' by the RA management committee. They are senior experienced referees who know the capability and ranking of all of our members and usually hold position within the management committee or the appointments team. They get to the ground before the first game and stay until the end of the last game (sometimes appointed to referee in one of the senior game). These Senior Officials have the list of all appointments on the ground and are given authority to make late appointment changes (but only when necessary).

This has been practiced in our district for many years and has never created any issues but certainly has solved many.
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I don't know where you are based, but this still just doesn't work for me. Anyone joining as a 4th official who hasn't been appointed as a 4th official isn't a 4th official and is not part of the game. If you are in England and that caused an issue then I can promise you that approach would not be supported.
 
I wouldn't have a problem with this. Having experienced being in a situation similar, too. It also provides a bit of a learning point of the assistant and referee. The best way I developed was assistant refereeing with the welsh premier league referees using the comms and how they deal with players - if it wasn't for them I wouldn't be where I am right now.

Personally, I don't see the problem in an experienced ref helping out a younger one. I would certainly do the same if needs be. Ive offered to run the line for inexperienced referees before who might be after a bit of support.

Padfoots acting like he's just come onto the pitch and decided he's 4th official. The rules state it is allowed, there shouldn't be any problems at all - he's clearly also spoken with the referee too. It takes pressure off the assistant and the referee, who as stated haven't had the best of games and allows them to focus more.
 
RustyRef said:
I don't know where you are based, but this still just doesn't work for me. Anyone joining as a 4th official who hasn't been appointed as a 4th official isn't a 4th official and is not part of the game. If you are in England and that caused an issue then I can promise you that approach would not be supported.
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There's actually nothing in the LOTG to support that viewpoint.
We may think it's 'poor practice', but nothing in the LOTG preventing it from happening. Whether it's against practice or comp rules is a different matter - but also moot.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
And another thing, if that was me in the middle and this 4th arrived like this, am deadly serious when I say the only person leaving the tech area at that point would be the 4th and not some coach!
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That's not what he means.... You seem not to understand what he says or you are intentionally trying to misunderstand him.... Seniors are appointed to assist if the need arises... The need arose for the presence of a 4th mid game and he filled in... Nothing more and in additional with the full consent of the CR who clearly was not in charge of the game..... Try and understand....
 
I understand and I understand a system where somebody can step in as 4th at a random point in the game to be flawed
So random is now in place after 22 mins yet there was a clear act of violence in 5 mins that had he been there at that point, he would have spotted and acted upon, yet opposing player hits back on the 25 th min right in front of the new 4th and is corectly spotted and dealt with. Fair? Consistent? Not really...
 
The OP has described a very specific set of tournament-style circumstances here. We don't know the full historical context behind why the officiating is organised like this - what previous incidents there have been and how the extra officials have been used. It seems to me that it is well thought out, practiced, and there are supervising officials present. Yes, it is odd to add a 4th during a game. But I certainly give the OP the benefit of any doubt here about the tournament organising.

Not far from this, I had a small sided tournament semi this season with a mass con at the end. As I blew the final whistle I got between the teams and paid particular attention to the problem player. One FA ref sec (also sometime observer and quasi-mentaur) happened to have been watching the game, milling around the matches. I was surprised to find him by my side as I was separating the teams. But I welcomed it of course. He was in FA uniform, the players know him, he didn't add to the drama. Unauthorised yes, but common sense at a small sided tournament with 4 matches and a couple of hundred spectators in and around one pitch.
 
discreet23 said:
That's not what he means.... You seem not to understand what he says or you are intentionally trying to misunderstand him.... Seniors are appointed to assist if the need arises... The need arose for the presence of a 4th mid game and he filled in... Nothing more and in additional with the full consent of the CR who clearly was not in charge of the game..... Try and understand....
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First of all....Wow! What an appalling attitude for your first post here.....but other than that...welcome!

If he wasn't in charge of the game, then surely he should have been replaced as someone stepping in as a 4th official has little influence over on field events, unless they are constantly making themselves involved? Which isn't the job of the 4th official.
 
santa sangria said:
The OP has described a very specific set of tournament-style circumstances here. We don't know the full historical context behind why the officiating is organised like this - what previous incidents there have been and how the extra officials have been used. It seems to me that it is well thought out, practiced, and there are supervising officials present. Yes, it is odd to add a 4th during a game. But I certainly give the OP the benefit of any doubt here about the tournament organising.

Not far from this, I had a small sided tournament semi this season with a mass con at the end. As I blew the final whistle I got between the teams and paid particular attention to the problem player. One FA ref sec (also sometime observer and quasi-mentaur) happened to have been watching the game, milling around the matches. I was surprised to find him by my side as I was separating the teams. But I welcomed it of course. He was in FA uniform, the players know him, he didn't add to the drama. Unauthorised yes, but common sense at a small sided tournament with 4 matches and a couple of hundred spectators in and around one pitch.
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The scenario you describe is a more common sense situation, the game has effectively ended and tournament officials are helping keep the peace, if in this melee they see something that they would decree merits further action, then, that's really up to them .
Most folk who have done kids tournaments where a coach is stepping out of line, will act as a presence or witness if nothing else, say towards final whistle to try defuse potential conflict.
The OP situation is more points of play, where, again hypothetically you are AR and FA official standing behind you says to you " that's a punch by Blue 5 and a red card" Would you act on this? (given you have not seen it or are not clear on what you saw) ?
The sudden appearance of 4th man is (although permitted in this tournament?) still a bit odd, and still gives me a picture of Atkinson or Oliver being 4th man to East and standing there going, mate, your having a nightmare am coming on.
 
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