The Ref Stop

Abusive spectator turns up as a team official

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U16 semi-final and in the first 10 minutes the junior referee is already having difficulty controlling the TA and the spectators behind the TAs are constantly having a go at him too. I was there for the next game and get on as 4th official to help with the referee's knowledge (no issues doing this administrative wise). There is this this one spectator behind the fence (the field was fenced around) who was having a go at the referee for every decision. My first act as forthy was to get the ground official to settle him down after I heard him yell out “the ref is an idiot”. That never stopped him completely but at least he wasn't being abusive anymore.

After half time break before KO I see this guy is sitting in the TA. When I tell him he should be behind the fence he says he is the assistant coach. He then produces a league issued ID card and his name is on the team sheet too. I told him there are two options, he can either choose to get behind the fence on his own will or I will call the referee over and inform him of the events of the first half. The referee decides what happens next which is unlikely to let him stay in the TA. The guy decided to get behind the fence.

Anyone would have done anything differently? If he decided he wanted to stay in the TA; does he have the right to do so? Can he be expelled by the referee for his actions as an 'spectator' in the first half?
 
The Ref Stop
Tricky one, firstly since no action was taken during the first half and I am assuming the person wasn't spoken to by the referee then I think you would find it hard to justify expelling him from the technical area. If he is a coach from the league then certainly he is entitled to be in the TA until the ref advises him otherwise.

A stern warning about his behaviour before kick off, to include I have already got the steward to speak to you about your behaviour etc followed by any stepping out of line and you will be gone would probably have been enough, to control him. Although what you have done worked so it was the right thing to do.

Personally, as the abuse was directed at the referee I would have informed him at half time so he was aware of what had happened so if you did need to use him he was up to speed, as it would be his decision.
 
Would you have sent him off for the comment if you knew he was a coach?
If so, then by all means, you can send him off once you find out that he's a coach!!!
 
one said:
U16 semi-final and in the first 10 minutes the junior referee is already having difficulty controlling the TA and the spectators behind the TAs are constantly having a go at him too. I was there for the next game and get on as 4th official to help with the referee's knowledge (no issues doing this administrative wise). There is this this one spectator behind the fence (the field was fenced around) who was having a go at the referee for every decision. My first act as forthy was to get the ground official to settle him down after I heard him yell out “the ref is an idiot”. That never stopped him completely but at least he wasn't being abusive anymore.

After half time break before KO I see this guy is sitting in the TA. When I tell him he should be behind the fence he says he is the assistant coach. He then produces a league issued ID card and his name is on the team sheet too. I told him there are two options, he can either choose to get behind the fence on his own will or I will call the referee over and inform him of the events of the first half. The referee decides what happens next which is unlikely to let him stay in the TA. The guy decided to get behind the fence.

Anyone would have done anything differently? If he decided he wanted to stay in the TA; does he have the right to do so? Can he be expelled by the referee for his actions as an 'spectator' in the first half?
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Am I correct in my interpretation that you just decided to appoint yourself as a 4th official? Before or after the KO? Was the game originally appointed with 3 officials, in which case the senior AR should be managing the TA's?

In terms of the how the spectator/coach was dealt with, seems reasonable to me.....but more concerned about the idea that an official can decide to appoint themselves as an extra official to a game ?
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
Would you have sent him off for the comment if you knew he was a coach?
If so, then by all means, you can send him off once you find out that he's a coach!!!
Click to expand...
He was acting as fourth official so he can't dismiss anyone, it would be down to the referee to make that decision.
 
From how I read it it is more about an experienced ref helping out a less experienced ref. One does say administrative wise it is ok to do this. I would inform the ref so that any abuse or silly business in the second half can be dealt with swiftly.
 
Padfoot said:
Am I correct in my interpretation that you just decided to appoint yourself as a 4th official? Before or after the KO? Was the game originally appointed with 3 officials, in which case the senior AR should be managing the TA's?

In terms of the how the spectator/coach was dealt with, seems reasonable to me.....but more concerned about the idea that an official can decide to appoint themselves as an extra official to a game ?
Click to expand...
I think I addressed your concerns in the next six words after the ones you highlighted when quoting me but will further expand here at the chance of going completely off topic.

I did appoint myself to be the 4th official after kick-off with the agreement of the referee. The game was originally appointed with 3 officials. The senior AR (well she was junior in age) was attempting to manage the TA but it wasn't working until I stepped in. The referee was not having a particularly good day either.

As I mentioned no issues with me appointing myself as 4th official after kick off administrative wise. I had the authority to do this both from the Referee Association side and the league side. Suffice to say the self appointment of the some (not all) officials under certain circumstances is actually a prearranged process in our system. Happy to explain this further.

@Tino Best , The incident about the spectator and general TA and spectator behaviour was discussed at half time. The decision was for the referee to only get involved if I can't 'resolve' the matter if anything else happens and if there is a need for an expulsion. Neither of us expected the spectator to be a coach.
 
one said:
I think I addressed your concerns in the next six words after the ones you highlighted when quoting me but will further expand here at the chance of going completely off topic.

I did appoint myself to be the 4th official after kick-off with the agreement of the referee. The game was originally appointed with 3 officials. The senior AR (well she was junior in age) was attempting to manage the TA but it wasn't working until I stepped in. The referee was not having a particularly good day either.

As I mentioned no issues with me appointing myself as 4th official after kick off administrative wise. I had the authority to do this both from the Referee Association side and the league side. Suffice to say the self appointment of the some (not all) officials under certain circumstances is actually a prearranged process in our system. Happy to explain this further.

@Tino Best , The incident about the spectator and general TA and spectator behaviour was discussed at half time. The decision was for the referee to only get involved if I can't 'resolve' the matter if anything else happens and if there is a need for an expulsion. Neither of us expected the spectator to be a coach.
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What a very bizarre system where you can turn up, decide the AR or ref is having a bad game, stick yourself on as a 4th and start to get involved with the game? Interested as to how much discussion could have taken place with the referee if the game has already started....surely they would be rather busy at that point?

And where does it end? If the self appointed 4th decides that the ref is really struggling do they march out to the middle and take over?
 
I think any referee putting themselves out to help a younger less experienced referee should be commended for their actions. No doubt both the Asst and Ref both benefited from you being able to control the situation re-idiot in the crowd.

If match control was lost and I saw a struggling referee I would like to think I would help them or offer advice, maybe not take over but certainly help to maintain the officials/players on the sideline. Well done @one
 
You can't appoint yourself as 4th official. If it was at a proper fenced in ground you have no right to be inside that barrier. You aren't named on the team sheet, nor the match officials list, bottom line is you shouldn't be there. What happens if one of the teams tells you to go? Even worse, what happens if someone lumps you one? That isn't assault on a match official as you aren't a match official in terms of that game.

You can offer encouragement from behind the barrier of course, but no further than that.
 
one said:
I think I addressed your concerns in the next six words after the ones you highlighted when quoting me but will further expand here at the chance of going completely off topic.

I did appoint myself to be the 4th official after kick-off with the agreement of the referee. The game was originally appointed with 3 officials. The senior AR (well she was junior in age) was attempting to manage the TA but it wasn't working until I stepped in. The referee was not having a particularly good day either.

As I mentioned no issues with me appointing myself as 4th official after kick off administrative wise. I had the authority to do this both from the Referee Association side and the league side. Suffice to say the self appointment of the some (not all) officials under certain circumstances is actually a prearranged process in our system. Happy to explain this further.

@Tino Best , The incident about the spectator and general TA and spectator behaviour was discussed at half time. The decision was for the referee to only get involved if I can't 'resolve' the matter if anything else happens and if there is a need for an expulsion. Neither of us expected the spectator to be a coach.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, where are you from/where do you referee?

It does sound strange that local association/league rules permit referees to appoint themselves to matches, especially after they have already kicked off, because the feel like it.
 
Ok. the appointment debate seems to have taken over the handling of the spectator/coach issue.

@RustyRef That may be so where you referee. But it is not the case in the particular circumstances I was in. Once appointed through the process mentioned, i am a match official the same as if I was appointed in prior by our 'appointments team'.

Here is how the process works in summary:

During the premiership season appointments can only by done by the appointments team. Any last minute changes or midway replacements (injury etc) can only be done with the approval of one of appointments committee members by phone, verbally or text.

The finals series starts after the premiership season and all games are sudden death. Due to its nature these games can get very heated. There are much fewer games in the finals series and played on only a few grounds with multiple fields. There are generally 4 game on each field in 4 time slots starting with the more junior/lower division games. All games are appointed a referee and 2 NARs and if known to be a 'problem game' a 4th. Some games can be appointed a 4th on the day if seen to be needed (like the one in OP). Some very late appointment changes can happen on the day due to necessity (eg, an AR calls in sick with short notice).

All officials who have games on the ground are encouraged to get there early and stay back after their game not only to support their colleagues but fill in if the need arises (obviously the are considerations on how many games can an official do).

Each ground is designated one or two 'Senior Officials' by the RA management committee. They are senior experienced referees who know the capability and ranking of all of our members and usually hold position within the management committee or the appointments team. They get to the ground before the first game and stay until the end of the last game (sometimes appointed to referee in one of the senior game). These Senior Officials have the list of all appointments on the ground and are given authority to make late appointment changes (but only when necessary).

This has been practiced in our district for many years and has never created any issues but certainly has solved many.
 
Still has me confused. In short, you are saying a game might not have a 4th until it becomes clear it needs one.
So all is quiet for 60 mins and not even the after thought of a 4th
Then last half hour is bedlam but hey, because game looked plain sailing, there is no 4th around?

By the same guidelines, it reads like a 4th appointed can wander away to the snack van because all appears calm.

Surely best practise is to either appoint a 4th. Or dont.
 
I don't like this really. It's an open show to clubs, spectators and indeed the appointed match officials that they aren't handling the game very well, not great for morale and seems could lead to further misconduct if clubs feel vindicated in their opinion of the match official. This would work better if the referee coukd request support as opposed to someone taking the onus and just jumping in.

Also in your notes it says appointed on the day - It's debatable as to what is actually meant by that statement. I am really struggling with this mid match appointment business as per above.
 
And another thing, if that was me in the middle and this 4th arrived like this, am deadly serious when I say the only person leaving the tech area at that point would be the 4th and not some coach!
 
Ok scenario here, you are doing a match a particularly contentious one lots going on and aggro because CAR giving every decision his teams way, which is getting to boiling point, with quite a few heated exchanges taking place and about to spill over and you want the CAR replaced for match control reasons, however no other person willing to do it. You notice a referee colleague who you know and trust who could help you out, would you -

a) continue using the CAR until it ends up in a full on riot?
b) tell the CAR to do one and say you will call the line yourself?
c) ask the colleague to take over?

I know what I would do and I know what my friends would do. Appointed or not if I see a fellow ref struggling I would step in to help out and have done.

As for being lumped by someone whether a match official or not quick call to Mr Plod either way, end of story.

Oh and how many people on here do CAR for other referees, they aren't appointed by the Association, they may be asked by a colleague to help out as they know them etc!
 
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