A&H

A constant reminder throughout the match.

I'm leaning like a tower in Pisa -->> towards a strong link between dissent and performance
However, dealing with dissent effectively prevents the tower from keeling over
I think most referees overrate their own judgement and I think most referees underrate everyone else's. If there's a mutiny, there's a strong chance the officials have got it wrong. This will happen many times to every referee, it's how we dig ourselves out which determines the outcome
 
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I'm leaning like a tower in Pisa -->> towards a strong link between dissent and performance
However, dealing with dissent effectively prevents the tower from keeling over
I think most referees overrate their own judgement and I think most referees underrate everyone else's. If there's a mutiny, there's a strong chance the officials have got it wrong. This will happen many times to every referee, it's how we dig ourselves out which determines the outcome



You have worded my point better than me.
Clearly nobody says have a perfect game = no dissent
the principle (for me) rings true though, better the performance, (which means, the right calls), lower the dissent

Yes of course a team appeal for everything, but, all the people cant always be wrong, if a team are chasing you round the pitch, its very very possible your one pair of eyes has seem something different (wrong?) to everybody else...
 
My experience this season, particularly from observations doesn't really align with that viewpoint. If anything, my highest marks has come in a game that was rife with dissent that continued post-match.
 
I'm leaning like a tower in Pisa -->> towards a strong link between dissent and performance
However, dealing with dissent effectively prevents the tower from keeling over
I think most referees overrate their own judgement and I think most referees underrate everyone else's. If there's a mutiny, there's a strong chance the officials have got it wrong. This will happen many times to every referee, it's how we dig ourselves out which determines the outcome

I'll go back to @Russell Jones 's post. It was Ciley's initial non-gospel view of "you don't get dissent when you get your decisions right. " that caused a strong reaction from the forumites. Since then he has somewhat changed his view to "you generally get less dissent when you get your decisions right". There is a big difference between the two.
 
I'll go back to @Russell Jones 's post. It was Ciley's initial non-gospel view of "you don't get dissent when you get your decisions right. " that caused a strong reaction from the forumites. Since then he has somewhat changed his view to "you generally get less dissent when you get your decisions right". There is a big difference between the two.


Mate its an internet forum, not a court of law.
 
Lucky for you :D


Not at all. Not lucky in any way shape or form. Expressing ones views in maybe not crystal clear intended manner is perfectly fine. Changing the words (unless you are Mrs May trying to force through a third bill) is fine too
Hardly relevant to the discussion in question, and of course hard to explain with use simply of text, without expression and tone and so on.

Anyways as per each and every person can have their own viewpoint, no matter how near or far it is to anyone elses.
 
Its healthy to have differing takes on things, it plants seeds, sometimes for the best, sometimes not

Without doubt its interesting to hear other folks takes on things.

And with so much being objective, there is generally no right or wrong as such, just, how it was done and how it could have been done different/better

Geography and expectation etc does come into it too, for better (and prob for worse), some things are just a bit different from place to place. We can all only deal with the environment we find ourselves in.
 
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Its healthy to have differing takes on things, it plants seeds, sometimes for the best, sometimes not

Without doubt its interesting to hear other folks takes on things.

And with so much being objective, there is generally no right or wrong as such, just, how it was done and how it could have been done different/better

Geography and expectation etc does come into it too, for better (and prob for worse), some things are just a bit different from place to place. We can all only deal with the environment we find ourselves in.
True but too late Ciley. You have already been convicted by the jury. You have to start a new thread for the appeal process.
 
I'd add one other dissent trigger: teams that want to play with very different levels of physicality. Those are the hardest games to draw lines on where fouls should be. And the difference means that both teams are absolutely convinced the referee doesn't know what a foul is.
 
I'd add one other dissent trigger: teams that want to play with very different levels of physicality. Those are the hardest games to draw lines on where fouls should be. And the difference means that both teams are absolutely convinced the referee doesn't know what a foul is.
Agreed. Been there. Consistency and clear communication in the first 10-15 minutes is key in these games. It's not about agreeing with you on what you would call a foul, it's about after the first 15 minutes everyone knows and has the same expectation on what you would call a foul.
 
I first started on Sunday League and I had terrible, terrible problems with dissent. I then spent 10 years in the senior game at L4 and L3 and didn't really do much Sunday football.

Once I quit L3 and went back to L5 I did Sunday League and had no problems. The differences were I was more confident, had a hell of a lot more experience, and could deal with the players much better. Without wanting to sound Billy Big ******** the players loved me and I went loads of games without even issuing a card, they were just happy to leave me to referee and I rarely got any complaints from anyone. When the line was crossed I stepped out of my potential complacence and dealt with it, for example a manager was sent from his touchline position at Hackney Marshes pitch N22 right the way back to the car park.
 
I first started on Sunday League and I had terrible, terrible problems with dissent. I then spent 10 years in the senior game at L4 and L3 and didn't really do much Sunday football.

Once I quit L3 and went back to L5 I did Sunday League and had no problems. The differences were I was more confident, had a hell of a lot more experience, and could deal with the players much better. Without wanting to sound Billy Big ******** the players loved me and I went loads of games without even issuing a card, they were just happy to leave me to referee and I rarely got any complaints from anyone. When the line was crossed I stepped out of my potential complacence and dealt with it, for example a manager was sent from his touchline position at Hackney Marshes pitch N22 right the way back to the car park.


This could be because, the players trust you. And why? Because they know or have trust in you to make the right (and you can define right in many ways) call.
I be honest, I have trifled with it, and sometimes made a wrong call but its been accepted.
Your story is like mine, again not looking for rose petals but I know when I turn up (at most!) (not all clearly) Sunday pitches, am already ahead as they have trust that todays referee is decent, or is at least perceived to be.

TV wise Mariner is the prob the best example we can all see weekly at the moment, the players have total trust in him, despite him not always being up with play, in the right place, or even making the total correct call.
Halsey/Dowd towards end were same.
 
I first started on Sunday League and I had terrible, terrible problems with dissent. I then spent 10 years in the senior game at L4 and L3 and didn't really do much Sunday football.

Once I quit L3 and went back to L5 I did Sunday League and had no problems. The differences were I was more confident, had a hell of a lot more experience, and could deal with the players much better. Without wanting to sound Billy Big ******** the players loved me and I went loads of games without even issuing a card, they were just happy to leave me to referee and I rarely got any complaints from anyone. When the line was crossed I stepped out of my potential complacence and dealt with it, for example a manager was sent from his touchline position at Hackney Marshes pitch N22 right the way back to the car park.
Our local RA has a good relationship with one of our A-League referees. He rose through our ranks and is still a member. Every now and then he does a game or two for us at grassroots. Obviously he is very good but he hardly gets any dissent. Yes partly due to his skills (doesn't make blunders) but as a big factor, everyone knows he is a top flight referee and on the 50-50s, they tend to trust his opinion over their own. That doesn't happen with a first year referee in the middle.

Another big factor is the ability to confidently sell a decision with which gets better with experience. If you can sell a decision, a big one or a 50-50, it tends to get less dissent.
 
I posted the following on a Supply league FB group that has been discussing the introduction of Sin Bins at Step 5 and 6 next season:

As a referee I see dissent being caused by 4 main things

1) bad decisions by the referee (yes it happens, sometimes we do get it wrong, but I'd still argue that in general our decision making accuracy is always far better than every player on the pitch throughout the course of the game). Often that causes a bubble up of anger or frustration that leads to dissent and cards. Every referee I know is their biggest critic, so when we do get it wrong, we analyze why we did and how we can make sure we don't do it again
2) "transference of blame" some players want to use the referee as a target to deflect blame from their own mistakes, that throw in on half way that may have taken a nick off the opponent, that leads to a goal, it's the referees fault, not the fault of the full back that subsequently got skinned or the 2 central defenders and goalkeeper that couldn't defend the cross into the box leading to the goal.
3) the tight decisions that we have to make, especially KMI'S. We get one look at it and give it as we see it. Even if you watch football on the TV you'll have some decisions where a group of "experts" can't agree on what the decision should be and in every game there are probably 2 or 3 instances like that, though some are more important than others.
4) players and managers not actually knowing the laws of the game. I've lost count of the number of times players have argued themselves into the book when they are completely incorrect in law. Examples:
A. it's hit his hand and he's gained an advantage (next season maybe, this season it's not a consideration)
B. You can't book me, I didn't swear at you - sorry pal the offence is "dissent by word or action"
C. You can't say " leave it" yep you can, it's only an offence if it's done to deliberately distract and opponent, in which case he's getting a card.

My personal view is that if players and managers spent more time on knowing the key laws (specifically law 12), then a lot of dissent would be wiped out, because there would be a clear understanding as to what the referee is looking at and penalizing. I'm pretty certain that active referees would be happy to come into clubs in pre season and spend some time with them to help build a greater level of understanding.

As for the whole double dissent, it depends on how quick you get the second yellow out. I've done it once and there was zero complaint. The player carried on long enough after clearly being told to go away that his team mates were telling him to shut up otherwise he was going to get sent off and when he carried on and I hit the 2nd Yellow and Red, his teammates were calling him the names for being so stupid.
Great post :)
 
As I started off I had to get more Mike Dean-esque as my dissent card count rose and rose, after a bit though my reputation grew and the cards fell dramatically as they got my stance. There’s a line, step on it or over it and I’m acting, no ifs buts or maybe. They knew then how much to push. I did some 100% noobs who usually couldn’t help themselves in getting carded for something, generally the same things too. I don’t care what standard you are or we’re, these boys needed management, sadly though their actual manager was an older, fatter, gobbler version of them... it was a thankless task at times.
 
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