8 second law example

[Runner Ref]

By that same token - surely if a player is preventing the release of the ball from the goalkeeper, this then comes into law 12 and an indirect free kick is awarded - therefore the 8 second count does not begin.

So then you need to award an IDFK, not delay the count if they have prevented the release.

I have not specifically seen the guidance, as I mentioned earlier, they don’t make the guidance particularly easily accessible to people who aren’t actively refereeing (including fans and this is a major part of the issue)- I get my guidance from everyone on here for the most part.

What is the specific wording of the guidance?

 

[Russell Jones]

So then you need to award an IDFK, not delay the count if they have prevented the release.

I have not specifically seen the guidance, as I mentioned earlier, they don’t make the guidance particularly easily accessible to people who aren’t actively refereeing (including fans and this is a major part of the issue)- I get my guidance from everyone on here for the most part.

What is the specific wording of the guidance?

On the other thread relating to this topic, I posted the IFAB guidance from a recent Facebook post of theirs. This is driving the guidance given by PGMO, FA and County associations. Should it have been written into the law, absolutely. But neither is it ‘hidden away’ or difficult to find

 

[Runner Ref]

On the other thread relating to this topic, I posted the IFAB guidance from a recent Facebook post of theirs. This is driving the guidance given by PGMO, FA and County associations. Should it have been written into the law, absolutely. But neither is it ‘hidden away’ or difficult to find

This site is the closest I get to social media. You then have the fact that Facebook is dying out anyway, due to other social media sites

I did a quick google search for the guidance, and nothing.

 

[RustyRef]

Simon Hooper is taking an interesting approach to it, twice Arsenal players have stood in front of the keeper and both times he has immediately stopped play and given an IDFK.

 

[Runner Ref]

Simon Hooper is taking an interesting approach to it, twice Arsenal players have stood in front of the keeper and both times he has immediately stopped play and given an IDFK.

Said this is how they need to manage this is #41.

All for it as long as it’s consistent.

In the long run, add to law that opposition players need to be outside the PA. Clears all of this up

 

[Gabriel]

Simon Hooper is taking an interesting approach to it, twice Arsenal players have stood in front of the keeper and both times he has immediately stopped play and given an IDFK.

I had a promotion CPD with my CFA this morning and interestingly we were told to do this, but only after we gave the opponent a clear verbal instruction to move away. At the same point, we were told to pause the count while we did this, and then continue where we left off when (/if) they moved

 

[RustyRef]

Said this is how they need to manage this is #41.

All for it as long as it’s consistent.

In the long run, add to law that opposition players need to be outside the PA. Clears all of this up

Doesn't necessarily fix it, the Arsenal player was outside the penalty area but still moving around in front of the keeper. Suppose there's an argument that the keeper could move backwards to make space, but I'd guess there argument would be why should I have to.

 

[socal lurker]

Doesn't necessarily fix it, the Arsenal player was outside the penalty area but still moving around in front of the keeper. Suppose there's an argument that the keeper could move backwards to make space, but I'd guess there argument would be why should I have to.

I wouldn’t mind makingthe law simple—opponents have to leave the PA, and the 8 seconds start once they are outside. And then we can let opponents do whatever they want outside the PA—a GK can either stay back and have all the space he wants or take the risk of getting near the opponents.

 

[JD1]

On my count its about 7 and 3/4, close but if I felt hes in the motion of releasing the ball as the 8 seconds hit, id carry on.

In my countdown I hold the shout for 1 so much ('oneeeee') that there are no excuses from the keeper if he goes past that, im giving them closer to 9.5 seconds

 

[Peter Grove]

I have read the thread. You are correct the law does have a specific definition. It also states ‘the referee will decide when the goalkeeper has control of the ball’.

It does indeed state that, and that's precisely the problem, because the detailed definition given in the paragraphs immediately preceding that statement, do not give any leeway, they're clear and unambiguous.

So we have two pieces of written law that are pretty much totally at odds with each other.

As others have said, all the IFAB has to do is add a short piece of wording that comports with the guidance given to some referees locally, or in the IFAB Q&A, that when it comes to the 8 second count, a different definition of when the goalkeeper is in control of the ball, will apply (and what that is).

 

[Peter Grove]

On the other thread relating to this topic, I posted the IFAB guidance from a recent Facebook post of theirs. This is driving the guidance given by PGMO, FA and County associations. Should it have been written into the law, absolutely. But neither is it ‘hidden away’ or difficult to find

Oh, I don't know about that - I'd say it is relatively difficult to find. I think I'm fairly good at finding things on the internet and I wasn't aware of any of the guidance until I asked about it here, and people provided either the info itself, or links to it.

If I didn't frequent this forum, I'd be totally unaware of what precisely this supplementary guidance is.

 

[one]

I just like to point out that the bit that says ‘the referee will decide when the goalkeeper has control of the ball’ is completely redundant and pointless. The referee decides all the subjective decisions (and strictly speaking even the non subjective ones).

What they meant to say is the referee decides when to start the count, but that didn't fit in with the rest of the law.

 

[Hilly1618]

Are we losing sight of the squirrel here? Why was this law change introduced do we feel?

To stop goalkeepers clearly wasting time or
To ensure every goalkeeper in possession of the ball gets it back into play within 8 seconds every single time they are in possession of the ball?

I would wager it is the former and will be utilised as when a referee feels the need to intervene and probably more so after any proactive communication previously used by the referee is not having the desired effect.

 

[one]

Are we losing sight of the squirrel here? Why was this law change introduced do we feel?

To stop goalkeepers clearly wasting time or
To ensure every goalkeeper in possession of the ball gets it back into play within 8 seconds every single time they are in possession of the ball?

I would wager it is the former and will be utilised as when a referee feels the need to intervene and probably more so after any proactive communication previously used by the referee is not having the desired effect.

Why was the 6 second law introduced when it was?
How did that workout when referees applied your approach

 

[Hilly1618]

Why was the 6 second law introduced when it was?
How did that workout when referees applied your approach

So is your intention to carry out a Ted Roger’s impression every time a gk has possession of the ball?

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

So is your intention to carry out a Ted Roger’s impression every time a gk has possession of the ball?

In every game I have watched this season, the referee has used the visual countdown, and in some cases voice as well, and it has worked. One corner awarded after a goalkeeper took too long just two minutes into the game, no other contraventions.

 

[GraemeS]

It does indeed state that, and that's precisely the problem, because the detailed definition given in the paragraphs immediately preceding that statement, do not give any leeway, they're clear and unambiguous.

So we have two pieces of written law that are pretty much totally at odds with each other.

As others have said, all the IFAB has to do is add a short piece of wording that comports with the guidance given to some referees locally, or in the IFAB Q&A, that when it comes to the 8 second count, a different definition of when the goalkeeper is in control of the ball, will apply (and what that is).

I think it's even simpler - it just needs an AND. You can keep the current definition of control, just also add that the count only starts when that is the case AND when the GK is afforded sufficient room by opposing players to safely carry out a kick or throw from hands.

 

[one]

I think it's even simpler - it just needs an AND. You can keep the current definition of control, just also add that the count only starts when that is the case AND when the GK is afforded sufficient room by opposing players to safely carry out a kick or throw from hands.

How would this wording work for the common scenario of when keeper catches the ball in the air with no opponents around, lands on feet off balance and then falls to the ground after a step or two from his momentum, all part of natural action to catch the ball. He then immediately stands up to release the ball. When would you start the count? It is not just about the opponents.

I think the wording "first opportunity to release the ball" affords referees sufficient discretion on when to start the count but also restrictive enough to tell them not to be over generous.

 

[GraemeS]

How would this wording work for the common scenario of when keeper catches the ball in the air with no opponents around, lands on feet off balance and then falls to the ground after a step or two from his momentum, all part of natural action to catch the ball. He then immediately stands up to release the ball. When would you start the count? It is not just about the opponents.

I think the wording "first opportunity to release the ball" affords referees sufficient discretion on when to start the count but also restrictive enough to tell them not to be over generous.

I worry that "first opportunity to release the ball" either
1) is taken very literally and doesn't add any extra time. In your scenario, it is possible to release the ball from the split second the GK makes the catch, which I don't think is the desired start of the count.
Or 2) is taken to mean "first opportunity to release the ball in the manner the GK wants to" - in which case, cannot result in the clock starting while the GK holds onto it on the ground, because they are not yet in a position to throw or drop-kick it. Which again I think is not the desired outcome in the case of keepers who are less honest and choose to stay on the ground.

In your scenario, I would suggest the objective is to start the count when he comes to rest on the ground. Therefore perhaps the wording should be "when the GK completes the process of taking control of the ball AND is afforded sufficient room by opposing players to safely carry out a kick or throw from hands."

 

[Runner Ref]

I've said it a number of times, but the simplest route is that the count will start when the 3 criteria of goalkeeper having control is met, and all opposition players are outside the area

That then puts ownness on the opposition as well- 'number 9, my count doesn't start until you leave the penalty area'