2 soft yellows?
- Thread starter Standard
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Players very rarely deliberately commit DOGSO - and if it is a deliberate act, it will usually take the form of a shirt pull or trip and is therefore even more unlikely to be SFP.
What you're talking about is an action with multiple unintended consequences. What the OP is talking about is an action with an intended consequence that the referee has chose to ignore in favour of finding a different unintended consequence.
It seems to be today's trend on here! If there is an obvious decision that is clearly expected by everyone involved, why are we digging down to find a warped and complicated reason to give a weird and unexpected decision? The player has sarcastically kicked the ball away as an act of dissent - punish him for dissent and get on with the game.
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I don’t think I ever wrote he deserved a red, I just said he had it coming. You are taking what I’m saying completely out of context
I hope he did deserve a red, seeing as he got sent off!
On a serious note, sorry if you think any of the criticism was too harsh. After seeing Ones post, I went back and read it and yeh it was harsh. My only concern was whether you did send him off because he was Annoying you, because that’s how I interpreted your post. And you also seemed to hint you know it was dissent. But as long as that isn’t the case, that’s fine and apologies if I did misinterpret. I still disagree with your decision.
I do think you have created an interesting debate about C2 vs C4 though. I decided to have a quick read through Refchat, and it seems this topic has come up a few times. The consensus seems to be it’s not about what the most serious sanction is at the time, but more the context, which makes sense. Personally I think you can tell when a player does something as dissent or to delay the restart of play. Obviously, there’s a grey area, but I feel sarcastically kicking the ball away falls under dissent.
That’s a fair point, maybe you just had to be there to feel the context/atmosphere of what was occurring
ChasObserverRefDeveloper
Regular Contributor
But let's look at the OP situation - player sent off, penalty missed, play restarts, goes to far end, goal scored . . . and then a player kicks the ball away.I didn't realise if the referee made another decision that any previous decisions (ie his team mate being sent off) could no longer be dissented.
Is that expressing dissent over the earlier decision?
TheRefereeFrom2003
New Member
Teammate sent off, player cautioned, penalty missed, straight down the other end they scored.
I don’t think it’s a massive stretch for that to be dissent. Especially when Standard says “sarcastically kicked the ball” and it was right in front of him. Do you think that’s a case of delaying restart of play or dissent?
I don’t want to jump on the Standard hate train, I feel like his criticism has been a bit OTT. And I’ve stayed out of this thread until now for that reason. But personally in my opinion I think it’s clear dissent in this case.
I could be dissent but I want to make it clear, the final punishment and fine was not running through my head at that point as some have suggested, I wasn’t out there to try to get him fined/banned for as long as possible, didn’t even think about it as I showed him the second caution
The way that the OP was written. Yes. Whilst I too share the sentiment of how one kicks a ball sarcastically, if that is what happened then its most likely as a result of the earlier decision..
ChasObserverRefDeveloper
Regular Contributor
I would tend to use the "Acting in a provocative, derisory or inflammatory way" section of Law 12 and therefore caution.
Dissent is nearly always an immediate reaction to a decision.
Macca
Active Member
While it could be dissent, I'm not sure how anyone but the player could know whether booting the ball away was an act of protest against a previous decision or one of relief or joy at being on the verge of conceding to that of doubling the lead. Maybe the player made a comment or gave Standard a look so to him it was clear. I'll absolutely accept Standards word for it as he was there.
I don't have sin bins in my league, so maybe I would have told the player to quickly retrieve the ball and any hesitation, yellow for delaying the restart.
Reminds me of a recent enough game where the ball went wide for a corner, about 30 yards behind the goal and a defender was going to retrieve it, but while about 10 yards from the ball got a shout to leave it as it was the other teams ball. The defender comes traipsing back and me quite loud admonishing him for it and telling him if I could issue a card for it, I would.
I don't have sin bins in my league, so maybe I would have told the player to quickly retrieve the ball and any hesitation, yellow for delaying the restart.
Reminds me of a recent enough game where the ball went wide for a corner, about 30 yards behind the goal and a defender was going to retrieve it, but while about 10 yards from the ball got a shout to leave it as it was the other teams ball. The defender comes traipsing back and me quite loud admonishing him for it and telling him if I could issue a card for it, I would.
What caution code would you file this under?
I've shown a second yellow and "sent a player off" for dissent after the final whistle. Came up to me under the guise of shaking my hand, then about a meter away pulled up and sarcastically clapped in my face.
Dissent doesn't have to relate to a single decision, it can be a general comment on your overall performance or anything else you perceive as such really. "There's 2 sides here ref!" is a common shout, which just last week I heard directed at the referee as we walked off at half time - that's literally dissenting a pattern of decisions as they're perceived by the manager/player, rather than any one decision in particular.
But the difference is kicking the ball away is an action, not a direct verbal comment or gesture
But why is that different? Dissent is by word or action.
If you think he was doing it in disagreement or protest to any decision you made at any time that's dissent.
You can’t clearly have a general dissent if it’s by action, minutes after the last contentious decision that upset the player. If he spoke and said something verbally that’s understandable, but by doing something, it can be difficult to sell a dissent for a decision that happened to minutes ago (obviously sarcastic clapping or a gesture not included)
“dissent by word or action” is what it says in the LOTG. Kicking the ball away is a sign of dissent, that’s been agreed on. It’s just whether or not you should caution for that or delaying restart of play.
This is it. The fact the OP comments it was kicked “sarcastically” suggests he knows it was done as an act of dissent rather than to restart play. I still don’t know how it can be kicked sarcastically, and I’m intrigued how. Once this debate stops, that’s my next question
The fact Standard mentions it was kicked sarcastically though seems to suggest it was done as dissenr. Again, the bit thing here is context. Context plays a massive part in all of our decisions. I said earlier “you ****ing ****” said to an opponent will likely get a different reaction to the same thing said to a teammate as a term of endearment. Here it’s the same. Both cautions are acceptable, its the context it’s done in that decides which code To use. And basically by his own admission, I feel C2 is the right answer here.
What was the reaction when you sent him off?
Now, just to clarify, I’m not saying for one second you should judge whether a decision is correct based on players and coaches reactions. And you mentioned in your other post they weren’t great about the OFFINABUS. But you keep mentioning how hard it would be to sell dissent, so I’m intrigued.
How did you sell the second yellow?
Just because I feel that’s harder to sell than a sin bin
Given the word sarcastic is used in the dissent definition, I'm inclined to pigeon hole a sarcastic ball kick there.
In my head I am envisaging something which says to the match official, "you sent our player off but we scored still anyway ner ner" which am popping in my dissent column.
In my head I am envisaging something which says to the match official, "you sent our player off but we scored still anyway ner ner" which am popping in my dissent column.
The player seemed a bit surprised but then he was surprised that he got cautioned for scuffing up the penalty spot. No complaints from any one on the side which was good considering they weren’t happy with the earlier OFFINABUS
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