A&H

10cm "wang buffer"

JamesL said:
Yes, but it would emphasise the clear and obvious philosophy.
I think the precision of lines gives the clear (less margin of error) but not obvious.
Take the lundstrom offside for example, his toes was adjudged to be offside, this was clear, but it wasn't obvious, without the precision applied by the lines.
I also think that if it can't be seen with a naked eye then on field call. It emphasises the final decision being the OFRs and the VAR moving back to the advosry role the protocol says it should take.
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Im actually a fan of that James but as soon as a decision goes against x, y, z, because of the above then they’ll be crying for lines again.
 
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GraemeS said:
The concern with that is always going to be camera angles. I regularly watch the MLS Instant Replay show, and it's fairly common in that league for the VAR to go "I haven't got a particularly good angle, so I guess we'll just go with the onfield decision". And in a world where people can't accept lines, I'm far from convinced they'll accept the VAR just shrugging.
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Part of the issue is that there is no "AR's Call" in the game. If the AR puts their flag up, it's offside and the game stops, if not they play on, therefore by not signalling offside the immediate inference is that the AR is saying "Onside"

If you want to go down the path of having these marginal decisions dealt with by a kind of " AR's Call" approach then there needs to be a way in real time of the AR indicating that their assertion is " Offside" or not.

Putting the flag up on the move is one way, but that then potentially impacts credibility for the following phase of play. Potentially having the button on the flag connected somehow to indicate a offside call, whilst play continues, or have the audio footage of the Comms available to ratify the AR's Call.

What it highlights, which is what anyone who has ever run the line will tell you, is that the optimum position to give offside is square on, in line with the second last defender as a foot either side can dramatically impact the perceived view of the incident.
 
Justylove said:
Part of the issue is that there is no "AR's Call" in the game. If the AR puts their flag up, it's offside and the game stops, if not they play on, therefore by not signalling offside the immediate inference is that the AR is saying "Onside"

If you want to go down the path of having these marginal decisions dealt with by a kind of " AR's Call" approach then there needs to be a way in real time of the AR indicating that their assertion is " Offside" or not.

Putting the flag up on the move is one way, but that then potentially impacts credibility for the following phase of play. Potentially having the button on the flag connected somehow to indicate a offside call, whilst play continues, or have the audio footage of the Comms available to ratify the AR's Call.

What it highlights, which is what anyone who has ever run the line will tell you, is that the optimum position to give offside is square on, in line with the second last defender as a foot either side can dramatically impact the perceived view of the incident.
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Current protocols--outside the PL--do essentially what you are suggesting. Everywhere else with VAR, the instructions to ARs are:
  • flag clear OS immediately
  • flag all OS immediately if there is no immediate GSO
  • if OS is close and there is a GSO then:
    • say "delay, delay, delay" into the mic so the R and team know you are going to flag for OS
    • raise the flag as soon as the GSO is over or a goal is scored
It's an absolute myth that the ARs are not making calls in real time or advising the R in real time. The PL decision to have the ARs flag close OS immediately puts the impetus on the R to decide that it is a close call and to let an GSO continue--which, IMHO, is nuts, as the AR has a much better view as to whether or not it is a close call (and standing with the flag means the AR has no chance to evaluate a subsequent OS situation).
 
socal lurker said:
Current protocols--outside the PL--do essentially what you are suggesting. Everywhere else with VAR, the instructions to ARs are:
  • flag clear OS immediately
  • flag all OS immediately if there is no immediate GSO
  • if OS is close andthere is a GSO then:
    • say "delay, delay, delay" into the mic so the R and team know you are going to flag for OS
    • raise the flag as soon as the GSO is over or a goal is scored
It's an absolute myth that the ARs are not making calls in real time or advising the R in real time. The PL decision to have the ARs flag close OS immediately puts the impetus on the R to decide that it is a close call and to let an GSO continue--which, IMHO, is nuts, as the AR has a much better view as to whether or not it is a close call (and standing with the flag means the AR has no chance to evaluate a subsequent OS situation).
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I think you are missing the point though.

If a call is tight, then the current practice once the play has stopped is to go through this factually based approach to decide whether they are offside by a toenail or not, Which with the current technology does have a margin of error.

If you are going to move to something that says we won't try and plot lines, instead unless it's obvious, we'll have a "Umpires call" type approach, like they have in cricket for LBW, then it's about how that gets managed.

It needs to be clear to those watching in the ground and on TV that the "AR's Call" is "Offside" so that those playing and watching don't feel like there is some sort of conspiracy or fudging things after the fact.

So process would be:

1) Announce VAR review for Offside
2) AR's Call is announced as being Offside or Onside (prior to replay being shown)
3) Replays reviewed and unless it's clear and obvious either way through them, then the AR's Call stands.

The difference is how the AR's Call gets communicated and how fast, prior to the replay being reviewed. Then in the interests of transparency that AR's Call has to be able to be validated as actually having happened.
 
Justylove said:
The difference is how the AR's Call gets communicated and how fast, prior to the replay being reviewed. Then in the interests of transparency that AR's Call has to be able to be validated as actually having happened.
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The AR's "call"*l today is communicated before the review. Either the flag went up (the AR signaled OS and then R signaled for an IFK), or the flag didn't go up (the AR didn't signal OS).

Referees are nor responsible for the inability of TV announcers to understand this or other aspects of the Laws. This should be very simple for the TV announcers to know exactly what is happening if they take the trouble to understand how the process works. VAR never** makes an initial decision.

As to putting clear error back into this, I have long supported this. (Well, I also support abandoning VAR, but that isn't going to happen. As I posted above, I think MLS is in the better place, not using magic lines but only having visual looks for clear errors by ARs.
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*ARs don't actually make calls. ARs advise the R what the call should be. But that's a bit pedantic.
**With the stupid sometimes exception where ARs are told not to flag GK movement on a PK, which is then determined by VAR.
 
OK, I swear I had not seen this article before I posted earlier about using deliberately wider lines (never read the Daily Fail unless it's the only thing that comes up in a Google search) but apparently Mike Riley has already talked about using that exact idea to reduce the amount of "armpit" offside calls.
Premier League clubs [...] asked Riley for solutions. So far this season 25 goals have been ruled offside by VAR. Riley told clubs that with a 10cm line nine of those 25 goals — including Jesus’s — would have been given.
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