The Ref Stop

All this counting

santa sangria

santa sangria

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Full disclosure, I do a lot of futsal so I am very familiar with a lot of counting.

What do you think about the counting in the world cup and implementing it?

(Last night I attended a local top flight match - Finland - and the Finn top league has adopted the new counting laws as of last week. It definitely kept the ref busy at goalkicks, throw ins and corners. So, my basic observation was, great for punters but kinda stopped the ref in particular having natural breaks. I noticed some quite manic counting at times, so could there be an unexpected effect on recovery/fitness?)
 
The Ref Stop
Nah it’s fine.

When you think “they could have taken this by now” you PEEEEEP and go 🖐🏻 FIVE…
 
santa sangria said:
Full disclosure, I do a lot of futsal so I am very familiar with a lot of counting.

What do you think about the counting in the world cup and implementing it?

(Last night I attended a local top flight match - Finland - and the Finn top league has adopted the new counting laws as of last week. It definitely kept the ref busy at goalkicks, throw ins and corners. So, my basic observation was, great for punters but kinda stopped the ref in particular having natural breaks. I noticed some quite manic counting at times, so could there be an unexpected effect on recovery/fitness?)
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Ref busy at corners . . . (?)
 
santa sangria said:
Full disclosure, I do a lot of futsal so I am very familiar with a lot of counting.

What do you think about the counting in the world cup and implementing it?

(Last night I attended a local top flight match - Finland - and the Finn top league has adopted the new counting laws as of last week. It definitely kept the ref busy at goalkicks, throw ins and corners. So, my basic observation was, great for punters but kinda stopped the ref in particular having natural breaks. I noticed some quite manic counting at times, so could there be an unexpected effect on recovery/fitness?)
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Restarts are not a break for the ref. And counting isnt going to have an impact on fitness/recovery, no sir.
1 thing I did see and probably did myself was when poorly positioned to start the count, having to count and make up ground/position looked and was awkward
 
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JamesL said:
Restarts are not a break for the ref. And counting isnt going to have an impact on fitness/recovery, no sir.
1 thing I did see and probably did myself was when poorly positioned to start the count, having to count and make up ground/position looked and was awkward
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Absolutely. It was a common theme in our 7-6-5 coaching visits last season that refs were being caught out of position at GK punts because of starting the count in a position that was too deep. Think next season it will be incumbent on refs to get to their desired restart positions promptly and then consider whether a count requires starting
 
Can confirm from an academy friendly yesterday - get in position before you start the count 😂 I was caught short a few times as I was adapting to all the changes (primarly at goal kicks as obviously at throws typically you're already there anyway) and it made my life fairly difficult. Back tomorrow for another game so hopefully I take my own advice with that
 
Gabriel said:
Can confirm from an academy friendly yesterday - get in position before you start the count 😂 I was caught short a few times as I was adapting to all the changes (primarly at goal kicks as obviously at throws typically you're already there anyway) and it made my life fairly difficult. Back tomorrow for another game so hopefully I take my own advice with that
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Organised football in June 🤯

How DARE you
 
JamesL said:
Restarts are not a break for the ref. And counting isnt going to have an impact on fitness/recovery, no sir.
1 thing I did see and probably did myself was when poorly positioned to start the count, having to count and make up ground/position looked and was awkward
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…you have only been counting goalkeeper kicks from hands, right?

What I found interesting watching the other day was that the referee had to count goalkicks while moving on many occasions. This meant a lot of running backwards while counting in order to watch and communicate with the goalkeeper. This very different from the normal “sprint into position and leave the GK to the AR”.

(And I do think set pieces give us time to reset, refocus - they are not a half time orange break - but they historically give us time to reassess - I think the counting and pre-counting means we lose some of that time)
 
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santa sangria said:
…you have only been counting goalkeeper kicks from hands, right?

What I found interesting watching the other day was that the referee had to count goalkicks while moving on many occasions. This meant a lot of running backwards while counting in order to watch and communicate with the goalkeeper. This very different from the normal “sprint into position and leave the GK to the AR”.

(And I do think set pieces give us time to reset, refocus - they are not a half time orange break - but they historically give us time to reassess - I think the counting and pre-counting means we lose some of that time)
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Yes, thats what am referring too. You can often be hanging around for 2 seconds before realising the keeper intends to go long at which point you have to count, have eyes on the keeper and striker hanging round whilst trying to get to the obvious drop zone they will aim for.
 
santa sangria said:
What I found interesting watching the other day was that the referee had to count goalkicks while moving on many occasions. This meant a lot of running backwards while counting in order to watch and communicate with the goalkeeper. This very different from the normal “sprint into position and leave the GK to the AR”.
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Not sure why this would happen. The count on a GK only starts once the R decides it has been taking too long. Presumably the R should be in position by then.
 
socal lurker said:
Not sure why this would happen. The count on a GK only starts once the R decides it has been taking too long. Presumably the R should be in position by then.
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This would be most practical way of doing it but technically it should start based on the keeper having control of the ball (or in fair terms keeper have the opportunity to release the ball) not the referee being ready.

It will become very difficult when you have a team who like to play from the back vs a team who likes to press high. It means you have to stay close to the PA and usually start the count there. Then the keeper's options are closed and he shapes for punting it long. You can't stop the count until he kicks it but you have to start to sprint before he does.
 
one said:
This would be most practical way of doing it but technically it should start based on the keeper having control of the ball (or in fair terms keeper have the opportunity to release the ball) not the referee being ready.

It will become very difficult when you have a team who like to play from the back vs a team who likes to press high. It means you have to stay close to the PA and usually start the count there. Then the keeper's options are closed and he shapes for punting it long. You can't stop the count until he kicks it but you have to start to sprint before he does.
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Santa sangria’s post referred to goal kicks . . .i presumed he actually meant goal kicks, not ball in the GK’s hand
 
I think the counting is a great idea but the potential introduction of the requirement or obligation of the referee to do so is just adding onto an already long list of things for referees to manage.

What I mean by this is now there's more possible outcomes than initially started with:
1) Referee forgets to count entirely, gives warning then IFK once they realize excessiveness.
2) Referee initially forgets, then starts counting—count is now off and technically inaccurate to the LoAF.
3) Referee now has to manage counting perfectly, another responsibility.

Whereas previously it was simple; guesstimate six seconds and blow if it feels excessive. No count was necessary, and an indirect kick could've been given as soon as noticed, typically well past the original six seconds and thus with little controversy. The Occam's razor solution would of course just been to mandate the six seconds with the visual countdown and that's it; no eight seconds or nonsensical corner kick adjustment necessary.

As its only implemented for the goalkeepers and leeway is provided for throw ins, it won't come up as a problem now, but I'm sure in future seasons we can expect IFAB to expect us to manage a whole array of overcomplicated counts for various restarts, in addition to the usual nonsensical rule changes or three.
 
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And another thing, I'm not quite sure if this comes across clearly, but the continued addition of mandated counts inflicts on a previously outlined freedom given to the referee, and that is sole interpretation of the time. Being the sole timekeeper provides a great amount of control in game management, but as this tool is slowly chipped away it almost becomes an Americanization (US Soccer w/ timekeepers & countdown clocks), or the mandated "4-quarter water breaks" everyone is complaining about this WC.

Ultimately its less real control in the hands of referees exchanged for more responsibility; rarely a good thing.
 
cwyeary said:
I dont think the intention is to immediately start counting on every throw and goalkick. For example if the losing team takes a few extra seconds on a throw Im not going to immediately whistle and start counting. Its an anti time wasting tool not a basketball style hard count.
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Yeah but … football… the winning team 1-0 up wants to slow everything down after going ahead after 50 mins… so the onus is on the referee to properly count every restart as they want to waste time at every restart.

What I saw… yes, the wait before the count starts… but it all means the referee is so much more involved (like futsal)… those few second delays in retrieving the ball are much more important than they used to be… you either start the internal precount or you don’t… and really you have to be watching.

as AR I’ve had refs brief with fly kicks that with comms the AR starts the 8,7,6 … but I don’t think refs want that at every restart.., maybe someone does?
 
santa sangria said:
What I saw… yes, the wait before the count starts… but it all means the referee is so much more involved (like futsal)… those few second delays in retrieving the ball are much more important than they used to be… you either start the internal precount or you don’t… and really you have to be watching.

as AR I’ve had refs brief with fly kicks that with comms the AR starts the 8,7,6 … but I don’t think refs want that at every restart.., maybe someone does?
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There's no 8 second limit for restarts and theres no pre-determined time to start the count.
 
LCCE said:
Ultimately its less real control in the hands of referees exchanged for more responsibility; rarely a good thing.
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That's exactly why they added the visible count on GK possession. Rs were simply ignoring the 6 second requirement--if the 6 second rule had been remotely enforced, we never would have had the change . 20-30 seconds had become normal in professional soccer--and I can only come up with one time I ever saw it called in a pro game.. As much as warning the keeper, the 5 second count forces the ref to make the call, as it is visible to everyone. And I don't see how anyone watching the game can't see that it has been an actual improvement. Sure, not every GK gets called right at 8 seconds. But I'd bet if you timed it, GKs have had the ball in their hands half as much as they did before the change.
 
Just a simple observation from the 50+ middles I have done this season, I have only started a visible count on about a third of goal keeper posessions.
Counts on TI and GK start next year for us.
 
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