The Ref Stop

EFL OFFINABUS

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Russell Jones said:
I totally understand the strength of feeling from those that would like to see such language more routinely sanctioned at the higher levels. I do get that the example set can be one of the factors impacting behaviour and expectation at lower levels.

However, I’d also ask those people to imagine the response from the footballing world if instead this incident had only been seen / not heard from a distance rather than in extreme close up (as is more normal). If then a second YC had been produced, seemingly out of nowhere / for very little, there would have been a massive outcry about over officiousness unnecessarily ruining the spectacle for everybody. That just emphasises the difficulty involved in striking the right balance …
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Yeah maybe in the moment people are like “wtf”. Just like they are with all the other laws they don’t understand. Then it comes out what was said and people go “oh fair enough” or a small minority will go “bit woke you can’t scream **** off in someone’s face”. See the Fulham implosion for a good example.
 
The Ref Stop
Runner Ref said:
Football League game; 90th minute, 5-0 score line.

Clear DOGSO offence outside the area. Are you going to not send the defender off as people may think you’re being over officious and ruining the spectacle?
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That's completely different as everyone would have seen it. What @Russell Jones was saying is this is a fairly unusual case where the TV caught the words and exchange, had they not and the player been sent off then that is where the outcry would have come. Because the incident was caught on video and audio it would have been difficult for people to complain too much had he been sent off, but equally match officials can't make decisions based on whether there is a camera and microphone in close proximity.
 
RustyRef said:
That's completely different as everyone would have seen it. What @Russell Jones was saying is this is a fairly unusual case where the TV caught the words and exchange, had they not and the player been sent off then that is where the outcry would have come. Because the incident was caught on video and audio it would have been difficult for people to complain too much had he been sent off, but equally match officials can't make decisions based on whether there is a camera and microphone in close proximity.
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Not necessarily. In could be a minor shirt pull people potentially don’t see. And even then, with the amount of cameras at stadiums these days, whether that be TV or people’s phones, not too much gets missed. If they’re terrified of people being shocked, release the audio from the officials comms. I’m sure the ARs comms would have picked up Robinsons language just fine.
 
Runner Ref said:
Football League game; 90th minute, 5-0 score line.

DOGSO offence outside the area. Are you going to not send the defender off as people may think you’re being over officious and ruining the spectacle?
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I’m a lowly specialist AR so I don’t get to send people off 🤣. But to compare a highly visual decision seen by absolutely everyone, with some choice words that the vast majority of those in the stadium would have no idea about is just unhelpful and irrelevant.

PS if they trusted me with a whistle then in your scanario my red card would be out in a flash 😊
 
Runner Ref said:
Not necessarily. In could be a minor shirt pull people potentially don’t see. And even then, with the amount of cameras at stadiums these days, whether that be TV or people’s phones, not too much gets missed. If they’re terrified of people being shocked, release the audio from the officials comms. I’m sure the ARs comms would have picked up Robinsons language just fine.
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But they'll still see a player going through on goal being chased by one or more defenders and going down, it doesn't need a lot to join the dots. Whereas a player being sent off for OFFINABUS, or a second caution for dissent, is obviously far less visible and in many cases wouldn't be audible.

I'd be all for a crack down on player behaviour, but it would have to come from the very top of the global game, individual referees, or even individual associations, going after it in isolation would be doomed to failure. I think I'm right in saying that you spent time at L3, so you should know as well as anyone that the AR taking action in this particular scenario would be unexpected and almost certainly not welcomed by anyone in the game (expect perhaps grass roots referees). You stick your head above the parapet and it gets shot off.
 
Rob123 said:
@RefereeX I hope i never have to referee with you as i can tell you would allow this behaviour. Which is disappointing, and if furthering your career is more important than protecting other officials from abuse than so be it. There lies the problem, referees will continue to get abused if this behaviour is not dealt with
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Interesting that you come to this conclusion given that I actually stated previously in this thread that as a referee I would act on it if my AR asked me to (I.e. if they were offended)
 
Russell Jones said:
I totally understand the strength of feeling from those that would like to see such language more routinely sanctioned at the higher levels. I do get that the example set can be one of the factors impacting behaviour and expectation at lower levels.

However, I’d also ask those people to imagine the response from the footballing world if instead this incident had only been seen / not heard from a distance rather than in extreme close up (as is more normal). If then a second YC had been produced, seemingly out of nowhere / for very little, there would have been a massive outcry about over officiousness unnecessarily ruining the spectacle for everybody. That just emphasises the difficulty involved in striking the right balance …
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And this is the problem we have, far too much worrying about what the football world will think instead of punishing abusive language.

I do wonder if some people's opinions would be different if this was directed at the referee instead of the assistant, saying it once is bad enough but around 3 times when the assistant was explaining something(which I believe the player was wanting initially) is clearly at least dissent if you want to be lenient about it.

I seemed to recall Lewis Dunk got a straight red for calling the referee a "P*ick" so it can be enforced if the officials are strong enough.
 
Are we still "reading the room" or maybe some refs don't agree with your assertions?

IF all professional refs went "the same way" this would be a lot simpler but they wont. The biggger problem is the requirements of their paymasters to ignore this cancer. Shame on them.

But the referees also have to collecively take responsibilty. Sick of phrases like "it's entertainment" and such like.

I think nearly every other sport wouldn't ignore this.

My brother is still a rugby referee and that phrase would be straight red, not a sin bin when he refs. Didn't Dylan Hartley tell the ref to"f Off" in a final (just before half-time) and got a straight red?

The demise of society and football are linked.
 
RustyRef said:
But they'll still see a player going through on goal being chased by one or more defenders and going down, it doesn't need a lot to join the dots. Whereas a player being sent off for OFFINABUS, or a second caution for dissent, is obviously far less visible and in many cases wouldn't be audible.

I'd be all for a crack down on player behaviour, but it would have to come from the very top of the global game, individual referees, or even individual associations, going after it in isolation would be doomed to failure. I think I'm right in saying that you spent time at L3, so you should know as well as anyone that the AR taking action in this particular scenario would be unexpected and almost certainly not welcomed by anyone in the game (expect perhaps grass roots referees). You stick your head above the parapet and it gets shot off.
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If a referee randomly brandished a card to a player when no challenge has occurred, people are going to know it was dissent or OFFINABUS.

Yep, I spent time at L3. Yep, players swore in my game. Was there a limit? Of course where was. After all, it’s not necessarily what was said, it’s how it was said. Unless Robinson was telling the AR how amazing he was in the clip, I don’t see anything other than a caution at the very least. His mannerisms alone are aggressive. That’s before you consider that he told him to f*** off 3 times right to his face.
 
Kent Ref said:
Are we still "reading the room" or maybe some refs don't agree with your assertions?

IF all professional refs went "the same way" this would be a lot simpler but they wont. The biggger problem is the requirements of their paymasters to ignore this cancer. Shame on them.

But the referees also have to collecively take responsibilty. Sick of phrases like "it's entertainment" and such like.

I think nearly every other sport wouldn't ignore this.

My brother is still a rugby referee and that phrase would be straight red, not a sin bin when he refs. Didn't Dylan Hartley tell the ref to"f Off" in a final (just before half-time) and got a straight red?

The demise of society and football are linked.
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And amazingly, despite this more relaxed approach, football is still far and away the biggest global sport / business and this shows no sign of changing. It’s almost as if the powers that be have correctly ‘read the room’ when it comes to what the paying public would prefer and are instructing their officials accordingly …. 🤔🤔😎
 
Russell Jones said:
And amazingly, despite this more relaxed approach, football is still far and away the biggest global sport / business and this shows no sign of changing. It’s almost as if the powers that be have correctly ‘read the room’ when it comes to what the paying public would prefer and are instructing their officials accordingly …. 🤔🤔😎
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Hmmmm, would you honestly say that the paying public get what they want from the officials?

I’ve never seen guidance from anyone to say you should ignore dissent abuse; is there?
 
Runner Ref said:
Hmmmm, would you honestly say that the paying public get what they want from the officials?

I’ve never seen guidance from anyone to say you should ignore dissent abuse; is there?
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I think the paying public prefer a good entertaining spectacle and would complain bitterly if a player from their chosen team was sent off for something non obvious and not dangerous.
The guidance, top to bottom, is that dissent is OBVIOUS disagreement with a referee’s decision. Whilst this can absolutely be done verbally, non verbal disagreement tends to be more obvious and is therefore easier and more important to punish.
 
Russell Jones said:
I think the paying public prefer a good entertaining spectacle and would complain bitterly if a player from their chosen team was sent off for something non obvious and not dangerous.
The guidance, top to bottom, is that dissent is OBVIOUS disagreement with a referee’s decision. Whilst this can absolutely be done verbally, non verbal disagreement tends to be more obvious and is therefore easier and more important to punish.
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Fans will moan is their player is sent off. Regardless of whether it is obvious or not. As a fan, I was referees to uphold the law and do their job. Not pander to what they think others may want.

Do you have this guidance in writing, or are you basing this on what you believe to be guidance? We’re having discussions in the other thread around guidance, and there is it a least literal guidance.
 
Russell Jones said:
I think the paying public prefer a good entertaining spectacle and would complain bitterly if a player from their chosen team was sent off for something non obvious and not dangerous.
The guidance, top to bottom, is that dissent is OBVIOUS disagreement with a referee’s decision. Whilst this can absolutely be done verbally, non verbal disagreement tends to be more obvious and is therefore easier and more important to punish.
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For clarity, do you agree with what they do in the EFL or not?

Would you tolerate being told to F Off 3 times when you run the line? Are you part of the problem?
 
Kent Ref said:
Are we still "reading the room" or maybe some refs don't agree with your assertions?

IF all professional refs went "the same way" this would be a lot simpler but they wont. The biggger problem is the requirements of their paymasters to ignore this cancer. Shame on them.

But the referees also have to collecively take responsibilty. Sick of phrases like "it's entertainment" and such like.

I think nearly every other sport wouldn't ignore this.

My brother is still a rugby referee and that phrase would be straight red, not a sin bin when he refs. Didn't Dylan Hartley tell the ref to"f Off" in a final (just before half-time) and got a straight red?

The demise of society and football are linked.
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As I said, I suspected opinions would be split between those that have operated at senior levels and those that haven't, which has proven to be broadly the case.

You might not like the answers, but perhaps you should try and go for promotion to L4/3 and see if your opinion changes when you have officiated at that level?
 
RustyRef said:
As I said, I suspected opinions would be split between those that have operated at senior levels and those that haven't, which has proven to be broadly the case.

You might not like the answers, but perhaps you should try and go for promotion to L4/3 and see if your opinion changes when you have officiated at that level?
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I'm too old now but integrity comes above reward, EVERY time.

What a silly reply.
 
Kent Ref said:
I'm too old now but integrity comes above reward, EVERY time.

What a silly reply.
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No age limit any more.

It isn't a silly comment as I've been there and experienced it, refereeing at senior levels is completely different to refereeing at grass roots and the expectations are different. I've already given an example of what happened to a L3 who decided to crackdown on player behaviour, it won't end well for any referee who takes that approach.
 
RustyRef said:
No age limit any more.

It isn't a silly comment as I've been there and experienced it, refereeing at senior levels is completely different to refereeing at grass roots and the expectations are different. I've already given an example of what happened to a L3 who decided to crackdown on player behaviour, it won't end well for any referee who takes that approach.
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You're right - it is silly for 1 ref to take a stand.

They need to act TOGETHER. But for some reason they all have their own agenda.

Who in the FA or PGMOL is briefing those referees and assistants to ignore OFFINABUS and dissent?

IF the FA / EFL want different LOTG then why not issue 2 different sets so we know what the hell is going on?
 
Kent Ref said:
You're right - it is silly for 1 ref to take a stand.

They need to act TOGETHER. But for some reason they all have their own agenda.

Who in the FA or PGMOL is briefing those referees and assistants to ignore OFFINABUS and dissent?

IF the FA / EFL want different LOTG then why not issue 2 different sets so we know what the hell is going on?
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But in the situation we are talking about here it would just be one referee, he could hardly ask people to wait for 5 minutes whilst he had a conference call with all other officials on the league to see if they would back his decision.

As has been said already, which you either haven't read or are choosing to ignore as it doesn't suit your narrative, this is not an FA or PGMOL issue as it isn't just in England, it is a worldwide challenge. Arguably player behaviour is massively better in England than it is in many other countries.

As I've also said, but presumably you are ignoring that as well, I would support a crack down, but that would have to come from the very top of the game (i.e. FIFA / IFAB). I also wouldn't ignore everything said, and I sent off a few players for OFFINABUS as a level 3. Usually because it was too loud and public to credibly ignore, and not taking action would have been a severe risk to my match control. And once because, even thought it was said without much volume, it crossed a line (I'd already gone to my left pocket for the yellow out for saying "you're a f***ing sh** ref", hand was switched to back pocket for red card when he added "and you're a f***ing bald c*** too").

But for the situation in question, which is after all what this topic is about, I'd be telling him to shut up and get back in his box, as well as reminding him that his further participation in the game could be over if he pressed my wrong buttons.
 
Runner Ref said:
Fans will moan is their player is sent off. Regardless of whether it is obvious or not. As a fan, I was referees to uphold the law and do their job. Not pander to what they think others may want.

Do you have this guidance in writing, or are you basing this on what you believe to be guidance? We’re having discussions in the other thread around guidance, and there is it a least literal guidance.
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As a referee tutor, this is part of what we are guided to instruct new starters. As someone who runs the promotion scheme in my county, it’s how I guide the promotion candidates. It’s clearly mirrored in the advice being given by the FA to Level 3’s and Level 4’s. And it’s most definitely been the prevailing wisdom within PGMOL circles over the last few seasons. And to me, it’s almost a truism that non verbal disagreement is almost always obvious (and therefore dissent) versus verbal disagreement which may or may not be. You may choose to take a different approach in your own games .. entirely your prerogative .. but it’s most definitely a theme that currently runs through the training of referees at all levels.
 
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