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Crawley Town versus Charlton Athletic called off 20 mins before kick off

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blackref

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Level 7 Referee
Not quite sure what section this fits in but it was supposed to be on TV. Crawley Town versus Charlton.
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Crawley Town v Charlton Athletic postponed: Watch the referee's inspections before decision that led to boos from the crowd

Crawley Town’s game with Charlton Athletic has been called off due to a waterlogged pitch just 20 minutes before kick off – following three inspections.
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The ref calls it off 20 mins before KO cant recall last time a professional game went down that route so close to KO; apparently he looked at pitch half an hours earlier then 20 mins before KO it wasnt playable. Weather rain all day and wasnt going to improve waiting 30 minutes. What could he possibly be trying to achieve? Pitch appears to have been unplayable long before ref probably emerged to take a look. Very odd IMHO
 
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Referees on televised games are put under enormous pressure to get it played. Not just by the broadcaster, but also the clubs risk losing the TV money if it is called off. They will always leave it as late as possible on these games.
 
I understand the pressure applied but you could argue that goes on all the time and there is (sorry cant find it) but I recall this ref writing something about being a Prison officer and that dealing with the pressure of players etc as being a ref was easier etc. Whether it was/wasn't playable just past 2pm, how was it going to improve (with long and short term weather forecast to keep raining, no ground staff on pitch to do anything because after removing surface water they cant do anything else) half an hour later? It was due on Sky Sports+ (along with loads of other games today) so hardly a main catchment and doubt there are huge playouts to clubs here. I think its reasonable for anyone to ask what was the ref hoping to achieve in the aforementioned half hour? If it was on then unless you notice something dramatically changed play it, if its off then its off, if its doubtful then the constant rain was not going to change this situation from a doubtful/maybe/possibly to a have a go/game on etc. No logic to this. Is it no wonder refs get a barrage of abuse. I really do not think the ref helped himself here at all. He has been controversial previously I recall Mike Dean questioning why the heck was he signing autographs for fans at half time in PL match! Leaving it late as possible for a reason e.g. staff to work on the pitch or weather to improve or wind to die down maybe but nothing was going to change.
 
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Accountability? For failing to correctly guess the weather and how that would affect a stadium he may have never gone to before?

Not having that at all - these decisions are a guess at the best of times and require knowledge of weather and groundskeepeing. Neither of which are skills referees are assessed or trained on while working towards league 2.

You want accountability, we should be asking why a professional club can't get a decent pitch sorted!
 
GraemeS said:
Accountability? For failing to correctly guess the weather and how that would affect a stadium he may have never gone to before?

Not having that at all - these decisions are a guess at the best of times and require knowledge of weather and groundskeepeing. Neither of which are skills referees are assessed or trained on while working towards league 2.

You want accountability, we should be asking why a professional club can't get a decent pitch sorted!
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Not sure if the OP is a disgruntled Charlton fan that travelled or just someone who wants to use this forum to moan constantly about actions of others that have no effect on them, but it's getting very tiresome.
 
blackref said:
Not quite sure what section this fits in but it was supposed to be on TV. Crawley Town versus Charlton.
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Crawley Town v Charlton Athletic postponed: Watch the referee's inspections before decision that led to boos from the crowd

Crawley Town’s game with Charlton Athletic has been called off due to a waterlogged pitch just 20 minutes before kick off – following three inspections.
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The ref calls it off 20 mins before KO cant recall last time a professional game went down that route so close to KO; apparently he looked at pitch half an hours earlier then 20 mins before KO it wasnt playable. Weather rain all day and wasnt going to improve waiting 30 minutes. What could he possibly be trying to achieve? Pitch appears to have been unplayable long before ref probably emerged to take a look. Very odd IMHO
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Not an ideal situation, but a better outcome than kicking off and abandoning 20 mins in.

As this if a fairly local game, referee and clubs have obviously given it every chance they could to get the game on. Had it been Charlton vs Carlisle, maybe they would have made the decision sooner
 
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Runner Ref said:
Not an ideal situation, but a better outcome than kicking off and abandoning 20 mins in.

As this if a fairly local game, referee and clubs have obviously given it every chance they could to get the game on. Had it been Charlton vs Carlisle, maybe they would have made the decision sooner
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or 20 mins football is better than none? Im sure we've all played matches 50/50 and they do complete.
 
blackref said:
or 20 mins football is better than none? Im sure we've all played matches 50/50 and they do complete.
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No. 20 minutes' football is worse than none. Starting a match in the sheer hope of getting through it, and then a player getting cautioned, sent off, or injured isn't in anyone's interests when you know you're likely going to abandon it unless the weather suddenly changes (especially as it wasn't forecast to) is the wrong choice. Not to mention whether the match starts or not makes a difference to whether spectators get a full/partial/no refund in the event of abandonment.

And I'm sure had the referee started the game just to abandon it after 20 minutes, we'd have people complaining it never should have even kicked off, and he only started it so they'd get their full match fees. 🙄
 
Saturday was a difficult day in terms of the weather in the South East. Almost all pitches were playable in the morning, but there was a deluge that passed through about lunchtime with further rain that was on and off all the way up to KO time and for the duration of the games
The Referee in the OP seemed to face a very difficult marginal call for which he'd have been vilified regardless of the decision. The regulars on here will know that I generally think games get called off too easily, but I believe the weather Gods gave this Referee a really bad headache
 
blackref said:
or 20 mins football is better than none? Im sure we've all played matches 50/50 and they do complete.
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Absolutely not, abandoning with 20 minutes played creates a major problem. The law of sod dictates that one team will be leading at that time, then you have one team wanting the game abandoned and the other wanting to carry on. Also, at a professional game with paying spectators it is safer to call it off before the game.

I was AR on a National League game on NYD a few years ago. It really wasn't playable but the referee wanted to give it a chance, it was farcical and within 10 minutes players and officials from both teams were asking for it to be called off, despite everyone wanting it to be played in the first place. It lasted 35 minutes before having to be abandoned, and this caused all kinds of problems around spectators and refunds. Home club were angry he didn't wait another 10 minutes then there would have been no refunds as half a game would have been played.

I'm not sure why you have such an issue with it? The Charlton manager is clearly OK with it given the quote you attributed to him, so why the angst on your part?
 
I thought it was an interesting situation as the home club had called off a game earlier in the season because of safety concerns re the weather; yet there appears to have been no attempt to make an early call despite forecast being absolutely guarantee of bad weather. Ive seen footage of the pitch and Im amazed the ref didnt call it off on first inspection. The why not play 20 mins was more devils advocate. As for giving it another half hour before deciding 20 mins before ko to not play the game - what was the ref hoping to achieve? Ground staff had swept the water off, it continued raining. I find no reason whatsoever to further delay the inevitable. Can anyone tell me what was the point of this? Even if the ref felt under pressure from a team or both to play surely he asks whats the point of giving it more time. Time for what? If the drainage cant handle the rain and if its no doubt getting worse minute by minute it still rains and everytime anyone walks, runs, kicks a ball on it then it will only be worse.
 
RustyRef said:
Referees on televised games are put under enormous pressure to get it played. Not just by the broadcaster, but also the clubs risk losing the TV money if it is called off. They will always leave it as late as possible on these games.
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If the ref delays the call knowing full well he will call it off then surely this isnt in the best spirit of the game and if stakeholders knew that was the case they would be even more annoyed. As a ref whether a club loses TV money for example whats that got to do with me? Not my issue, not my problem; I can offer an empathic response, but ultimately its not my problem.
 
blackref said:
If the ref delays the call knowing full well he will call it off then surely this isnt in the best spirit of the game and if stakeholders knew that was the case they would be even more annoyed. As a ref whether a club loses TV money for example whats that got to do with me? Not my issue, not my problem; I can offer an empathic response, but ultimately its not my problem.
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That's easier said than done when you don't have the TV floor manager, and quite possibly a league official, in your ear telling you that it could be bad for your career if you don't give it a chance. We've all seen televised games that clearly should never have been played, I recall one at Luton a few years ago where large parts of the pitch were under water, there's no way on earth it would have been played had it not been on live TV.

Granted it is probably a bit different now that all non-Saturday 3pm games are streamed live as not the same audience figures and money for those kinds of games. But I know from experience that the live TV crews, and especially the floor managers, can be extremely demanding and put the match officials under all kinds of pressure. And given the sheer power these broadcasters hold I am far from convinced that the referee would be fully backed by the FA / EPL / EFL / WSL / PGMOL if they complained about them not giving the game a chance to go ahead.
 
RustyRef said:
That's easier said than done when you don't have the TV floor manager, and quite possibly a league official, in your ear telling you that it could be bad for your career if you don't give it a chance. We've all seen televised games that clearly should never have been played, I recall one at Luton a few years ago where large parts of the pitch were under water, there's no way on earth it would have been played had it not been on live TV.

Granted it is probably a bit different now that all non-Saturday 3pm games are streamed live as not the same audience figures and money for those kinds of games. But I know from experience that the live TV crews, and especially the floor managers, can be extremely demanding and put the match officials under all kinds of pressure. And given the sheer power these broadcasters hold I am far from convinced that the referee would be fully backed by the FA / EPL / EFL / WSL / PGMOL if they complained about them not giving the game a chance to go ahead.
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"And given the sheer power these broadcasters hold I am far from convinced that the referee would be fully backed by the FA / EPL / EFL / WSL / PGMOL if they complained about them not giving the game a chance to go ahead." thats worrying to read though not surprised to read it.
This ref though an ex prison officer has described how he can handle players in the game and so on so if anyone was capable of asserting what needs to be done i wouldve expected him to do this. The newspaper video where you can hear someone shout out in the background "just make a decision" maybe sums this situation up well, difficulty deciding but Im saying it shouldnt be. I wonder how much assertiveness helps refs progress up the levels.
 
blackref said:
"And given the sheer power these broadcasters hold I am far from convinced that the referee would be fully backed by the FA / EPL / EFL / WSL / PGMOL if they complained about them not giving the game a chance to go ahead." thats worrying to read though not surprised to read it.
This ref though an ex prison officer has described how he can handle players in the game and so on so if anyone was capable of asserting what needs to be done i wouldve expected him to do this. The newspaper video where you can hear someone shout out in the background "just make a decision" maybe sums this situation up well, difficulty deciding but Im saying it shouldnt be. I wonder how much assertiveness helps refs progress up the levels.
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At all times leading up to 14:40, the Referee determined there was a good chance the game could take place and did not therefore postpone
At all times there was a 'reasonable chance' he could be wrong
At 14:40, he determined that the aforementioned 'reasonable chance' had come to fruition because conditions had deteriorated more than he expected
At all times, you're in a minority of one in this thread. There must therefore be a very good chance that your viewpoint is wrong and unfair
At all times, there's a slim chance you might have a point

I've arrived at the Ground just before KO to learn that a game has been postponed due to deteriorating weather
It's very disappointing when this happens, especially for those who have travelled etc
However, it's no good judging an outcome with the benefit of hindsight when the Referee did not have that advantage. He made decisions with foresight which is fraught with risk either way

I was on the line for a game last season. The pitch was perfectly playable up until 15 minutes before KO at which point it absolutely hammered it down for a short while. The Referee would have been justified in calling it off right before KO. Circumstances change constantly. Circumstances can't always be foreseen with any high degree of confidence. The Referee at Crawley was the subject of varying circumstances which were not of his making. He was in a very difficult position and would've attracted criticism regardless of the final outcome. You're just one of those innumerable critics he couldn't appease

Generally speaking, I think you're wrong throughout this discussion. Your viewpoint seems born out of disappointment and is therefore unbalanced and you're in a minority of one (which 'usually' means you're wrong!)
 
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Big Cat said:
At all times leading up to 14:40, the Referee determined there was a good chance the game could take place and did not therefore postpone
At all times there was a 'reasonable chance' he could be wrong
At 14:40, he determined that the aforementioned 'reasonable chance' had come to fruition because conditions had deteriorated more than he expected
At all times, you're in a minority of one in this thread. There must therefore be a very good chance that your viewpoint is wrong and unfair
At all times, there's a slim chance you might have a point

I've arrived at the Ground just before KO to learn that a game has been postponed due to deteriorating weather
It's very disappointing when this happens, especially for those who have travelled etc
However, it's no good judging an outcome with the benefit of hindsight when the Referee did not have that advantage. He made decisions with foresight which is fraught with risk either way

I was on the line for a game last season. The pitch was perfectly playable up until 15 minutes before KO at which point it absolutely hammered it down for a short while. The Referee would have been justified in calling it off right before KO. Circumstances change constantly. Circumstances can't always be foreseen with any high degree of confidence. The Referee at Crawley was the subject of varying circumstances which were not of his making. He was in a very difficult position and would've attracted criticism regardless of the final outcome. You're just one of those innumerable critics he couldn't appease

Generally speaking, I think you're wrong throughout this discussion. Your viewpoint seems born out of disappointment and is therefore unbalanced and you're in a minority of one (which 'usually' means you're wrong!)
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I respectfully disagree re "The Referee at Crawley was the subject of varying circumstances which were not of his making." nothing was changing between the penultimate check and final check when a decision was made - why delay a further 30 mins no one has argued why this would happen other than pressure of stakeholders.
 
blackref said:
I respectfully disagree re "The Referee at Crawley was the subject of varying circumstances which were not of his making." nothing was changing between the penultimate check and final check when a decision was made - why delay a further 30 mins no one has argued why this would happen other than pressure of stakeholders.
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What was happening in that period between the checks was a respected and experienced match official giving the ground staff every opportunity to make the field of play playable.
There are protocols in place at that level, giving the match officials full instructions about the procedures to be followed.
Those not party to the protocol can offer uninformed opinions, as many other forums (away club supporters, for example) prove, but it is more fan talk than refereeing development.
 
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