The Ref Stop

Newcastle v Arsenal

David F

Member
I’m confused - thoughts on the reversed PK? I know leg first and onto arm is usually no pen, but that’s generally when the ball has been miscontrolled. Here Kiwior has made himself bigger to stop a shot and it hits his thigh first before his arm (I think). I can understand the ref giving no pen, but not sure why it’s a C&O error for VAR to overturn.
 
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The Ref Stop
Is it still in law that if the ball hits another body part before making contact with the arm then it is not an offence? Or just considered mitigating factors such as speed, distance, etc?
 
I’m wondering if it actually hit his arm. The replays didn’t look conclusive
 
Is it still in law that if the ball hits another body part before making contact with the arm then it is not an offence? Or just considered mitigating factors such as speed, distance, etc?
No, that was taken out this season. I think that Kavanagh saw the arm out and the ball hit it, but he didn't see that the defender was trying to pull the arm away.
 
Is it still in law that if the ball hits another body part before making contact with the arm then it is not an offence? Or just considered mitigating factors such as speed, distance, etc?
It’s not there. But I don’t think it entirely irrelevant when thinking about unnatural position.
 
I guess I’m surprised to see any handball overturned by VAR without evidence that it’s not hit the arm. I‘d assume that in most cases if it hits the arm it can’t then be a C&O error since mitigation is subjective.
 
As a Toon fan I have to say VAR got that right.
The ball definitely bounced up off his thigh and it actually looked like it didn't even touch his arm.
 
As a Toon fan I have to say VAR got that right.
The ball definitely bounced up off his thigh and it actually looked like it didn't even touch his arm.
Agree with you completely. Doesn’t look like it touched his arm and he was desperate to move it out of the way and looks like he succeeded.
 
No, that was taken out this season. I think that Kavanagh saw the arm out and the ball hit it, but he didn't see that the defender was trying to pull the arm away.
Was it? Last I looked it was there. Can we have confirmation? Either way in this case I don’t think it hit his arm anyway.
 
Thanks. Good to know that. I missed that amendment. ;)

In this case I actually don’t think it hit his arm and he was trying to move his arm out of the way.

Correct decision this time and good use of VAR.
 
Thanks. Good to know that. I missed that amendment. ;)

In this case I actually don’t think it hit his arm and he was trying to move his arm out of the way.

Correct decision this time and good use of VAR.

But note that it isn’t really a change In this context. We still have deliberate and unnaturally bigger. And the “directly from” provision didn’t apply to deliberate and unnaturally bigger. That’s what @RustyRef posted and highlighted above. part of what IFAB did was get rid of the confusing language.

For me where the deflection sometimes remains relevant is trying to sort out whether the position was “natural.” When the player plays the ball first with a legitimate body part, it can be a clue that the arm was natural. Far from definitive, but can sometimes help understand what the player was doing.
 
Thanks for the clarity on the law amendment. I find it strange that so many people have stated the fact that it hit the defenders leg before striking the arm as the reason it was overturned. Dermot even sited it on the TV!
 
Thanks for the clarity on the law amendment. I find it strange that so many people have stated the fact that it hit the defenders leg before striking the arm as the reason it was overturned. Dermot even sited it on the TV!
I guess because it changes the context as even if it did hit his hand after his thigh (which it didn’t), his arm was at that point being held behind his back and isn’t a handball.

I do think we need clearer and maybe simpler laws for handball. Problem is if they are too simple it ends up being very unfair on the defenders with handball being given for every touch.
 
With regards to deflecting from one body part to the hand/arm no longer taken into consideration...

I find it strange that the law allows proximity to be a factor when an opponent plays the ball, yet proximity is not considered when the ball deflects off a player themselves. If a player cannot move their arm in time due to proximity of an opponent's strike, how can they be expected to move their arm when their own deflection is much much closer?
 
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With regards to deflecting from one body part to the hand/arm no longer taken into consideration...

I find it strange that the law allows proximity to be a factor when an opponent plays the ball, yet proximity is not considered when the ball deflects off a player themselves. If a player cannot move their arm in time due to proximity of an opponent's strike, how can they be expected to move their arm when their own deflection is much much closer?

I think you are overthinking this and finding a distinction that doesn't exist.

There are two kinds of handling (other than the attacking scorer):

Deliberate handling: This is solely about whether ITOOTR the handling was deliberate. In evaluating that, we get to use the criteria that we see fit, the most common of which is whether the ball was moving towards the ball. When an arm is left in a position where it gets hit by the ball, that can be deliberate if the player had the opportunity to get the arm out of the way and didn't. Whether he had the opportunity to get out of the way could be impacted by a deflection off an opponent or himself--and the play is probably going to be evaluated by the "biggering" criteria.

Biggering: When a player makes himself unnaturally bigger, he accepts the consequence of that action. It doesn't matter whether the ball comes from close or deflects--the action of making himself unnaturally bigger means he has taken the risk of whatever happens. (As I said above, in some cases we might be less inclined to view the action as unnatural if the first contact is with the body rather than the arm.)

And note that the Laws have never exempted deliberate handling or unnatural position from being handling because it deflects off the player--those two "flavors" were outside the (poorly drafted) exemption for a ball that first contacts the player.
 
I do think we need clearer and maybe simpler laws for handball.
There is a real problem for the IFAB here. For many years the handball Law was as simple as you could wish: Handling must be deliberate - full stop. This lead to occasions however when goals were scored from accidental touches. Coaches and broadcasters moaned. So IFAB got themselves into complicated problems trying to make it clearer. Now everyone was confused, and goals were chalked off because it brushed someone's arm in the build up. So now we have a middle ground: deliberate is still in there; so is putting your arms in 'unnatural position'; and for good measure you can't score directly from an accidental touch. This does appear to be a reasonable compromise, slightly more structured than the old way, but less confusing than the mess of the last few years. Ah, but what about the ultimate simplicity: if it hits a hand in any way it is an offence? Simple, clear and easily checked with VAR. Just one drawback, I believe it was tested many many years ago, and all that happened with teams constantly blasted the ball into the penalty area hoping for a lucky hit on a defender's arm. Handling will always be a problem, and there will always be arguments, but what we have now seems like a reasonable middle ground.
 
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