This.
He very briefly played non-league in Germany. 4th tier of their system.
Started refereeing in 2002 and then played amateur football up until 2005 when he fully focussed on refereeing.
Far from a pro career.
Ex Pros becoming referees
- Thread starter lincs22
- Start date
He very briefly played non-league in Germany. 4th tier of their system.
Started refereeing in 2002 and then played amateur football up until 2005 when he fully focussed on refereeing.
Far from a pro career.
deusex
RefChat Addict
Well if a normal ref can be a L4 after 2 years, what would you consider "fast track"?
Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
Well, someone obviously inferred it, because they wrote about it in their response. I don't think anyone truly implied it, however.
I don't really think anyone in authority has suggested fast tracking. But the FA have made it very clear that the promotion system has been changed because it takes too long from qualifying to get to the top level. They want that to be possible in 6 to 7 years, as opposed to the 10+ years it previously took.
Some referees are just naturals. I know one (not an ex-player) who went 7-4 in the season after he qualified and then went straight onto L3, so he was L3 within 3 years of qualifying. They are few and far between though, and most will take a lot longer to get there.
Some talk about how quickly a Referee could be effective at say... Level 4
There's no answer to that question as it enormously depends on the individual in so may different regards
However, my argument is that there are some groups of candidates who could Ref Supply League football a lot sooner than others. Anyone who has played at Contrib Level or above will adjust to any intimidation factors a lot sooner than a ref with no experience of that environment. And of course, such an ex-player will speak the language of football fluently and be well placed t understand the game
Now, the similar could be said of anyone whose spent many years watching the game from the terraces for example. Conversely, a young fresh faced young lad emerging from Ref School is more likely to take many many years to toughen up and learn the expectation
There's no evidence for or against ex-pros becoming Refs simply because they don't really exist
All of this is based on generalisation. My generalisation is that an ex-player (Contrib Level +) is better placed to succeed as a Referee than his/her peers (all else equal), but there will be lots of individuals who will defy my postulation
And of course, there has to be something wrong with us for taking to the whistle, so the number of ex-players who would take an interest would likely be very small. More likely, ex-players could end up in advisory roles. AFAIK, IFAB has little or no ex-player representation... which is mad
It may be possible for a minority of individuals (inc. ex-players) to ref a Supply League game in their second season, but that individual would need to be a very promising Referee
There's no answer to that question as it enormously depends on the individual in so may different regards
However, my argument is that there are some groups of candidates who could Ref Supply League football a lot sooner than others. Anyone who has played at Contrib Level or above will adjust to any intimidation factors a lot sooner than a ref with no experience of that environment. And of course, such an ex-player will speak the language of football fluently and be well placed t understand the game
Now, the similar could be said of anyone whose spent many years watching the game from the terraces for example. Conversely, a young fresh faced young lad emerging from Ref School is more likely to take many many years to toughen up and learn the expectation
There's no evidence for or against ex-pros becoming Refs simply because they don't really exist
All of this is based on generalisation. My generalisation is that an ex-player (Contrib Level +) is better placed to succeed as a Referee than his/her peers (all else equal), but there will be lots of individuals who will defy my postulation
And of course, there has to be something wrong with us for taking to the whistle, so the number of ex-players who would take an interest would likely be very small. More likely, ex-players could end up in advisory roles. AFAIK, IFAB has little or no ex-player representation... which is mad
It may be possible for a minority of individuals (inc. ex-players) to ref a Supply League game in their second season, but that individual would need to be a very promising Referee
The system is too slow, that's undeniable. But I don't think that's a problem that needs to be specially fixed for ex-players, it's a problem that needs to be fixed for all referees.
The vast majority of PL officials will have been considered to have got there quickly if they start at 16 and then get their PL debut once they're 5 years older than most players decide they're too unfit and either resign accept a drop to lower quality league. There's another thread started today about the first Sikh-Punjab official in the PL this weekend - it's a notable achievement, but he's making his debut at 37, a year older than Giroud now is, who is in the process of breaking every "oldest player to do X" record available in Italy.
I don't have an easy solution, but that's the problem to fix first - and if it has the side effect of convincing ex-players to take up the whistle because they actually have a chance of getting to the top before they're 50 then great.
The vast majority of PL officials will have been considered to have got there quickly if they start at 16 and then get their PL debut once they're 5 years older than most players decide they're too unfit and either resign accept a drop to lower quality league. There's another thread started today about the first Sikh-Punjab official in the PL this weekend - it's a notable achievement, but he's making his debut at 37, a year older than Giroud now is, who is in the process of breaking every "oldest player to do X" record available in Italy.
I don't have an easy solution, but that's the problem to fix first - and if it has the side effect of convincing ex-players to take up the whistle because they actually have a chance of getting to the top before they're 50 then great.
My obsession with this is that what level defines an ex-pro? I've probably played more games across 5 to 11 a side than someone who retired before they turned 20 due to injury as seems to be the main suggestion.
The whole point of football is that the rules are (almost) identical at all levels, why is a fit bloke with a police career who has played Saturday league for 15-20 years less capable than an ex-pro, especially given many ex-pros just do not know the laws. (and I am not talking niche laws, I mean basics like seeing them shout that they got the ball after snapping some poor guys leg)
The whole point of football is that the rules are (almost) identical at all levels, why is a fit bloke with a police career who has played Saturday league for 15-20 years less capable than an ex-pro, especially given many ex-pros just do not know the laws. (and I am not talking niche laws, I mean basics like seeing them shout that they got the ball after snapping some poor guys leg)
You are right, there is not much evidence either way, but there are ex-contrib players who have gone into refereeing and not made it. The most successful I can think of is Joel Mannix, who was actually higher than contrib, but he took time and didn't get above 2B, not even sure he is still refereeing.
It used to be slow, but it isn't from this season with 7 to 6 and 6 to 5 promotion slots every 3 months, and mid-season promotions at higher levels. That in its own right is a risk though. Over the years I've seen so many referees go up to L4 way before they are ready, they have an absolute nightmare and either quit because they are hating it or get demoted at the end of the second season. Almost always they stop refereeing altogether, and that rapid rise sees them lost to the game for good. I wasn't far away from it myself, I went from 6 to 4 and was so far out of my depth it was unreal. Luckily on the game that I completely lost control I was being assessed by a current (at the time) Football League referee and he spent the best part of an hour with me after the game trying to pick me up. Had he not done that game might well have been my last experience refereeing.
Pace of progression is an interesting topic
I went from <50 spectators to >500 in one hit (in the middle). Promotion candidate or not, I wouldn't have taken a risk like that if I was the Appointment's Officer. I had a solid game as it goes, but that's besides the point
I've certainly had occasional crap games, but I don't think I've ever had an agoraphobic feeling of wanting to be teleported to some far flung safe haven. That's despite a history of struggles with anxiety when i was younger. It's normal for me to feel varying degrees of nervousness before a Supply League Middle, but I've developed a good relationship with myself and those jitters. As I say to my kids, 'nerves are fantastic and associated with the good things in life'. Going up the levels at the right pace is as much about mitigating the risk of debilitating anxiety as it is about learning the art of refereeing; although the two go hand-in-hand. A Referee's optimal pace of progression is difficult to predict. I'm not even sure we can predict it for for ourselves.
The vast majority of us will have a stress ceiling. Some of us will breach it and some of us will never reach it. The vast majority of us couldn't achieve the level our Professional Colleagues, likely because we'd melt in some horrible mess during a game en-route
I went from <50 spectators to >500 in one hit (in the middle). Promotion candidate or not, I wouldn't have taken a risk like that if I was the Appointment's Officer. I had a solid game as it goes, but that's besides the point
I've certainly had occasional crap games, but I don't think I've ever had an agoraphobic feeling of wanting to be teleported to some far flung safe haven. That's despite a history of struggles with anxiety when i was younger. It's normal for me to feel varying degrees of nervousness before a Supply League Middle, but I've developed a good relationship with myself and those jitters. As I say to my kids, 'nerves are fantastic and associated with the good things in life'. Going up the levels at the right pace is as much about mitigating the risk of debilitating anxiety as it is about learning the art of refereeing; although the two go hand-in-hand. A Referee's optimal pace of progression is difficult to predict. I'm not even sure we can predict it for for ourselves.
The vast majority of us will have a stress ceiling. Some of us will breach it and some of us will never reach it. The vast majority of us couldn't achieve the level our Professional Colleagues, likely because we'd melt in some horrible mess during a game en-route
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PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
If you wanted to and its not still painful, would you mind posting the details of that match, would prove interesting and informative for the rest of us I'm sure.
If it was still painful after all this time it must have been really, really bad
Two problems really, the first was that my first two games had gone really well, although looking back on it they were one sided games with some of the better behaved teams. I let myself think that it was going to be easier than I thought at this level.
For the next game, I didn't know it at the time but the teams had history and really didn't like each other. Someone had also told both teams that I was a brand new referee at that level, and they were on at me right from kick off. I started making silly decisions, like clearly seeing a goal kick and signalling a corner, and the more I tried to put it right the worse I got, something that I unfortunately had a habit of doing even when I went up to L3. Had a red card for an elbow off the ball, but unfortunately I only saw the reaction and not the first offence that caused it. I gave a penalty where there were no appeals, managing to surprise everyone, and ended up losing all semblance of control. I was physically and mentally drained at the end, once of those games where you just want the ground to open up and swallow you to get you out of there.
Basically I wasn't ready. The assessor highlighted numerous problems, I was running too much and coming way off my diagonal as if I had no assistants, and this meant I was missing things. And when I gave a decision I always then looked down at the ground, and the players seized on this as a sign of weakness, We didn't get the mark back then, but if it was above 60 I would have been surprised, but way more important than the mark was the fact he spent so much time with me trying to build me back up.
As I said, I'd gone 6 to 4 and really only had experience of refereeing on the AFC, a league known for its sporting behaviour. There was no requirement back then to be doing supply league lines, so I had absolutely no experience of step 5 football.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
Thanks, very interesting.If it was still painful after all this time it must have been really, really bad
Two problems really, the first was that my first two games had gone really well, although looking back on it they were one sided games with some of the better behaved teams. I let myself think that it was going to be easier than I thought at this level.
For the next game, I didn't know it at the time but the teams had history and really didn't like each other. Someone had also told both teams that I was a brand new referee at that level, and they were on at me right from kick off. I started making silly decisions, like clearly seeing a goal kick and signalling a corner, and the more I tried to put it right the worse I got, something that I unfortunately had a habit of doing even when I went up to L3. Had a red card for an elbow off the ball, but unfortunately I only saw the reaction and not the first offence that caused it. I gave a penalty where there were no appeals, managing to surprise everyone, and ended up losing all semblance of control. I was physically and mentally drained at the end, once of those games where you just want the ground to open up and swallow you to get you out of there.
Basically I wasn't ready. The assessor highlighted numerous problems, I was running too much and coming way off my diagonal as if I had no assistants, and this meant I was missing things. And when I gave a decision I always then looked down at the ground, and the players seized on this as a sign of weakness, We didn't get the mark back then, but if it was above 60 I would have been surprised, but way more important than the mark was the fact he spent so much time with me trying to build me back up.
As I said, I'd gone 6 to 4 and really only had experience of refereeing on the AFC, a league known for its sporting behaviour. There was no requirement back then to be doing supply league lines, so I had absolutely no experience of step 5 football.
I find him to be an absolute tool of a pundit but this is from garth crooks 'team of the week' article on BBC (how kdb gets in the team is beyond me but hey ho...)
I have no idea where he got that information from but I can assure him that has not been the case.
I can go back as far as the late-80s when, as chairman of the Professional Footballers' Association (PFA), I addressed the Referees' Association annual conference.
I appealed to them - no, begged them - to provide ex-professional footballers with exemptions for their years of service and have them fast-tracked into the system.
At the time there had been some appalling decisions made by referees in big games and it was felt officials could be helped by adding ex-players to their roster.
Although my speech was well received, their answer was an unequivocal no!
The reasoning was a simple matter of protectionism and the feeling that once players were allowed to become referees, their Association would be swamped by former professional players.
While I'm delighted the newly-appointed Webb, who will oversee all officials in the Premier League and English Football League, feels so inclined as to bring down the drawbridge, he would do well to apologise to the PFA on behalf of his profession for blocking career pathways.
He can rectify the situation by initiating formal discussions with the union to fast track ex-professional players into playing officials. It's the least he can do.
The Crooks of the Matter
I was taken aback recently when former World Cup referee Howard Webb suggested referees had 'always' struggled to get ex-players involved' when it came to officiating in the professional game.I have no idea where he got that information from but I can assure him that has not been the case.
I can go back as far as the late-80s when, as chairman of the Professional Footballers' Association (PFA), I addressed the Referees' Association annual conference.
I appealed to them - no, begged them - to provide ex-professional footballers with exemptions for their years of service and have them fast-tracked into the system.
At the time there had been some appalling decisions made by referees in big games and it was felt officials could be helped by adding ex-players to their roster.
Although my speech was well received, their answer was an unequivocal no!
The reasoning was a simple matter of protectionism and the feeling that once players were allowed to become referees, their Association would be swamped by former professional players.
While I'm delighted the newly-appointed Webb, who will oversee all officials in the Premier League and English Football League, feels so inclined as to bring down the drawbridge, he would do well to apologise to the PFA on behalf of his profession for blocking career pathways.
He can rectify the situation by initiating formal discussions with the union to fast track ex-professional players into playing officials. It's the least he can do.
sure does
I was talking about this with a colleague who's been involved in local football for years and he righty pointed out that any dropouts from Brighton academy are at an absolute minimum going to be immediately hoovered up by the local step 5/6 teams and paid £200-£300 per game to play.
£200 a game to play in proper stadiums and with a team of others, or less than a quarter that to drive yourself to a random field and get shouted at for 90 minutes? I can't see any reason why any of these ex-players would choose option B, outside of the kind of injuries that would probably stop you refereeing at the top levels anyway.
£200 a game to play in proper stadiums and with a team of others, or less than a quarter that to drive yourself to a random field and get shouted at for 90 minutes? I can't see any reason why any of these ex-players would choose option B, outside of the kind of injuries that would probably stop you refereeing at the top levels anyway.
Shows the understanding of garth. Taking to the RA conference and asking them for exemptions, whereas the RA has no influence on the promotion..... It is the CFA's which need to be onboard for the ex-pro's to be fast-tracked.
And the Step 5/6 leagues which they will get their first real test of their abilities.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
I think there’s something to be said for experience with crowds - so an ex pro or semi pro who is used to 500+ speccies might have an advantage over someone who has no experience of a crowd, intimidation and ceremony.
(Oddly I have experience of big crowds from music stuff and it has helped when I’ve done matches in ”proper” grounds and with more punters. Problem I have is I turn to jelly if my senior RDOs or chiefs are present!!)