The Ref Stop

Double Red

Viridis1886

Viridis1886

By the power of IFAB, you will obey me!
Level 5 Referee
Head to about 30s for the build up.


Looks the right call for me. The movement of the ball throughout the whole incident tells a story. Doesn't seem to move an inch.
 
The Ref Stop
This seems really odd without more context and better footage.

What I can see is the ref getting caught in the middle of players and then half-heartedly showing a red card - it’s unclear to whom!

If the idea is that he has sent off both players - surely, there must be more to it than just this challenge?

My take is the blue looks likely to get the ball but red aims for blue so blue retracts a bit. But surely football expects a yellow for both here?
 
cant recall last time I saw something like that, can fully support both reds

learning point be though, dont simply fire the red up into crowd of players, even here, throwing card into a group


basics! folk get the sanction technique hammered into them from birth

i be honest, one look, ( as thats what you would get in the stand aa observor, i have no idew who he showing card to)
 
santa sangria said:
This seems really odd without more context and better footage.

What I can see is the ref getting caught in the middle of players and then half-heartedly showing a red card - it’s unclear to whom!

If the idea is that he has sent off both players - surely, there must be more to it than just this challenge?

My take is the blue looks likely to get the ball but red aims for blue so blue retracts a bit. But surely football expects a yellow for both here?
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You typed that as I was typing.

am good if its two reds for SFP but 100% agree we have no idea ( other than the after event walking to tunnel) of who is being dismissed
 
I think the Plymouth (in Green) player is much more at fault. He's off the ground, lunging, straight leg, and catches his opponent late. The Accrington player has his legs tucked under him so poses much less of a danger, although he misses the ball by a country mile .

I've always found these types of tackles, where two players dive in, the hardest to rule on. Also shows the importance of angles, as it looks totally different on the official video to the Twitter one. Not shown on the video, but I believe the restart was a DFK to Plymouth. I'd also say that both players walked without any complaints, and both sets of players were equally angry about each opponent's challenge, so it does feel like two reds was probably the expected outcome. And Neil Hair is certainly not afraid to make the big calls, he's had a keeper off after 10 seconds and a defender off less than a minute into the National League play off final. His position was perfect, and he obviously sensed it was coming as he moved quickly towards it just before it happened. The cards were flashed but they are told to at that level, especially when it causes a confrontation, and it doesn't appear that it confused any of the players. That type of incident is one of the very few where I would support a quick red card at L2B and below where generally they aren't allowed. They talk about the referee's actions having a positive impact, and it did here as it calmed it down very quickly.

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RustyRef said:
I think the Plymouth (in Green) player is much more at fault. He's off the ground, lunging, straight leg, and catches his opponent late. The Accrington player has his legs tucked under him so poses much less of a danger, although he misses the ball by a country mile .

I've always found these types of tackles, where two players dive in, the hardest to rule on. Also shows the importance of angles, as it looks totally different on the official video to the Twitter one. Not shown on the video, but I believe the restart was a DFK to Plymouth. I'd also say that both players walked without any complaints, and both sets of players were equally angry about each opponent's challenge, so it does feel like two reds was probably the expected outcome. And Neil Hair is certainly not afraid to make the big calls, he's had a keeper off after 10 seconds and a defender off less than a minute into the National League play off final. His position was perfect, and he obviously sensed it was coming as he moved quickly towards it just before it happened. The cards were flashed but they are told to at that level, especially when it causes a confrontation, and it doesn't appear that it confused any of the players. That type of incident is one of the very few where I would support a quick red card at L2B and below where generally they aren't allowed. They talk about the referee's actions having a positive impact, and it did here as it calmed it down very quickly.

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The cards, were brought in to inform all and sundry of the sanction

the card is not, or was not, an invention to inform the sanctioned player of their punishment, but, everybody else.

Am a huge fan of flashing cards, esp to defuse flashpoints,

They do however require to be flashed clearly at the offender so everybody is aware of what is happening. To say its ok, the players knew take us back to the 50s? proir to having cards at all


In this clip, the flash card method has not been used to defuse anything
a quick flash card is one thing, i,e, foul, flash, off

here we have foul,,,,stromash, flash. Min ten secs in clip betwwwn foul and card, and thats been edited from who knows how long, so what we have here iis a messy flash card, not a quick defusing flash card.
 
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Anubis said:
The cards, were brought in to inform all and sundry of the sanction

the card is not, or was not, an invention to inform the sanctioned player of their punishment, but, everybody else.

Am a huge fan of flashing cards, esp to defuse flashpoints,

They do however require to be flashed clearly at the offender so everybody is aware of what is happening. To say its ok, the players knewm takes us back to the 50s? proir to having cards at all


In this clip, the flash card method has not been used to defuse anything
a quick flash card is one thing, i,e, foul, flash, off

here we have foul,,,,stromash, flash. Min ten secs in clip betwwwn foul and card, and thats been edited from who knows how long, so what we have here iis a messy flash card, not a quick defusing flash card.
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Still don't think anyone was confused. He showed the red card to two players, two players then walked off and down the tunnel, so really struggling to see how there was any confusion.
 
RustyRef said:
Still don't think anyone was confused. He showed the red card to two players, two players then walked off and down the tunnel, so really struggling to see how there was any confusion.
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nobody on earth here could guess from this still, and this still alone ( a nano millisecond before card out) which player the forth coming card is for




there are SIX players between the referee and green 7,

granted green 7 walked, he knew his fate lomg in advance of the production of card.

nobody on earth would be able tell green 7 was getting a red here,
 

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nano millisecond and card out . The red player, no issues with the administration, the green, shoddy.



thats before the obvious ill advised putting both off park at exact same time...
 

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RustyRef said:
Still don't think anyone was confused. He showed the red card to two players, two players then walked off and down the tunnel, so really struggling to see how there was any confusion.
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I'd get marked down for waving cards in the general direction of players. Why should it be any different at any level?
I'd wanna slow it down, allow treatment, get them both in and point out they could've both missed the rest of the season before issuing cards
 
Big Cat said:
I'd get marked down for waving cards in the general direction of players. Why should it be any different at any level?
I'd wanna slow it down, allow treatment, get them both in and point out they could've both missed the rest of the season before issuing cards
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If its instant, tackle bang, card, bang, great

the tackle long expired, the handbags have been out and away

and then the flash cards happen.

flash card should be the defuser, there is nothing to defuse here, its been and gone!
 
Anubis said:
If its instant, tackle bang, card, bang, great

the tackle long expired, the handbags have been out and away

and then the flash cards happen.

flash card should be the defuser, there is nothing to defuse here, its been and gone!
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Ste5/6 footy, we're still meant to be name checking and should rarely be flashing. Contrib footy, I'm up for flashing more often; even then, I don't like the way it's done more often than not and Refs do it for show IMO
 
Big Cat said:
Ste5/6 footy, we're still meant to be name checking and should rarely be flashing. Contrib footy, I'm up for flashing more often; even then, I don't like the way it's done more often than not and Refs do it for show IMO
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I mind like 10 year ago I flashed a dogso red in a midweek game under lights on a televised game

one commits the dogso 30 yards out, central and the other defender, who was the wrong side, is now at the scene

( its no fun to post ones own clips)

it was only watching it back, after indeed the supervisors phone call that there is no doubt on tv I have flashed card to the wrong player

the reality was i flaahed card, and the right player walked. On replay, I have def shown card to two defenders, mostly to the one who did not commit the foul,
Had the wrong player walked real time, hands held, I would have been none the wiser.
 
Anubis said:
I mind like 10 year ago I flashed a dogso red in a midweek game under lights on a televised game

one commits the dogso 30 yards out, central and the other defender, who was the wrong side, is now at the scene

( its no fun to post ones own clips)

it was only watching it back, after indeed the supervisors phone call that there is no doubt on tv I have flashed card to the wrong player

the reality was i flaahed card, and the right player walked. On replay, I have def shown card to two defenders, mostly to the one who did not commit the foul,
Had the wrong player walked real time, hands held, I would have been none the wiser.
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Easy done. Two games this season, two really good observations. Both games, I completely lost a player I intended to caution. Had to blag it to the other players for them to identify the culprit, 'where's he gone?', 'player, I need a word please'. Got away with it both times. Observer totally unawares 😂
Fine margins, some blagging and some luck to separate success & failure
 
Big Cat said:
Easy done. Two games this season, two really good observations. Both games, I completely lost a player I intended to caution. Had to blag it to the other players for them to identify the culprit, 'where's he gone?', 'player, I need a word please'. Got away with it both times. Observer totally unawares 😂
Fine margins, some blagging and some luck to separate success & failure
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I hit lucky by being close and communicating , ' xxxx, sorry mate, off"

Diff player, diff game, I still be looking for him today


looking back my thought process was, dogso, get the card out,, overlooking in the heat of the moment who to show card too !
 
Big Cat said:
I'd get marked down for waving cards in the general direction of players. Why should it be any different at any level?
I'd wanna slow it down, allow treatment, get them both in and point out they could've both missed the rest of the season before issuing cards
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Because the "no flashing cards" requirement doesn't exist at National League Premier and above. They want it done quickly so that the game isn't delayed, and at those levels team sheets are hardly likely to be wrong. At levels below that they want you to take your time, not so that it helps the crowd and participants in any way, rather to make sure the player reported is the right player.
 
Anubis said:
The cards, were brought in to inform all and sundry of the sanction
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hmm. I’m not sure that is accurate about their creation, though it is certainly descriptive of the use today. What I have always heard is that Ken Aston came up with them as a way of addressing the language barrier in international play. (At the time they started, I don’t think there was that much concern about more broad communication to others.)

(after his career in the UK, Aston spent a lot of time helping develop soccer refereeing in the US, including with AYSO. The premier AYSO referee camp in California still bears his name in honor of the many years he was the lead instructor there.)
 
socal lurker said:
hmm. I’m not sure that is accurate about their creation, though it is certainly descriptive of the use today. What I have always heard is that Ken Aston came up with them as a way of addressing the language barrier in international play. (At the time they started, I don’t think there was that much concern about more broad communication to others.)

(after his career in the UK, Aston spent a lot of time helping develop soccer refereeing in the US, including with AYSO. The premier AYSO referee camp in California still bears his name in honor of the many years he was the lead instructor there.)
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Certainly pre invention, nothing was shown

nothing was shown, simply a note taken of offender

wothout checking, he also had something to do with coloured flags


so communication was his thing,

holding up a red card and hoping for the red sea to part was prob not his inspiration
 
socal lurker said:
hmm. I’m not sure that is accurate about their creation, though it is certainly descriptive of the use today. What I have always heard is that Ken Aston came up with them as a way of addressing the language barrier in international play. (At the time they started, I don’t think there was that much concern about more broad communication to others.)

(after his career in the UK, Aston spent a lot of time helping develop soccer refereeing in the US, including with AYSO. The premier AYSO referee camp in California still bears his name in honor of the many years he was the lead instructor there.)
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Ken Aston had a problem in the 1962 World Cup with an Italian player refusing to leave after being dismissed, as there were no cards then and there was a language barrier.
Four years later Mr Aston was in charge of the referees in the World Cup in England when the Argentinian captain was sent off and declined to go.
Mr Aston later got inspiration from stopping at traffic lights in West London, and suggested red and yellow cards to FIFA.
They were introduced for the next World Cup, and later into the English Leagues. The FA later decided they were not working, so stopped their use until FIFA mandated their use everywhere.
On day one, two players were sent off, with George Best dismissed for offensive language to the referee (Yes, that used to happen!)
 
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