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WSL - Chelsea v Man City

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PinnerPaul

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Penalty given at about 30 seconds in?

Incredibly harsh to me and on top of that Ellen White cautioned and not sure the ball even touched her at all.

Thoughts? - difficult to see in real time, so 'safe' decision there is no pen for me
 
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Given based on the appeals by the looks of it.
Definitely no pen
 
Very wrong, but I can see why it was mistakenly given. Ellen White was cautioned and she did have her arms out from her body, but the ball struck Demi Stokes stood next to her and her arms were tucked in. Given they have comms you have to wonder if one of the other officials could have bailed her out?
 
RustyRef said:
Very wrong, but I can see why it was mistakenly given. Ellen White was cautioned and she did have her arms out from her body, but the ball struck Demi Stokes stood next to her and her arms were tucked in. Given they have comms you have to wonder if one of the other officials could have bailed her out?
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Maybe they were told don't give me your opinion if I don't ask for it ;)
 
Very tough to see in real time. Only arguably a penalty, but I don't think any of the officials could see which player it struck.

That rounding the keeper and finish by Fran though!
 
I am thinking about this and trying to justify how a referee can give a penalty for a handball he/she didn't see. I can't. The only thing I can think of is some sort of optical illusion that the referee thinks he/she has seem something that didn't actually happen.
 
one said:
I am thinking about this and trying to justify how a referee can give a penalty for a handball he/she didn't see. I can't. The only thing I can think of is some sort of optical illusion that the referee thinks he/she has seem something that didn't actually happen.
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tbh i think that's exactly what's happened. it looks like it hits white who's arms are outstretched. just one of those things, she'll have known she'd dropped a clanger from the reaction but if the ARs cant tell either (likely with the ball travelling at speed from side on) then she's no where to go
 
one said:
I am thinking about this and trying to justify how a referee can give a penalty for a handball he/she didn't see. I can't. The only thing I can think of is some sort of optical illusion that the referee thinks he/she has seem something that didn't actually happen.
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Also none of the angles offered are that of the referee. Everything about whites action and fall to the floor says the ball has struck her on the arm so I can see how the ref has made the call.
 
Martiju said:
Very tough to see in real time. Only arguably a penalty, but I don't think any of the officials could see which player it struck.

That rounding the keeper and finish by Fran though!
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Agree - which surely means it shouldn't have been given?
 
PinnerPaul said:
Agree - which surely means it shouldn't have been given?
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That's conjecture. We know nothing of what the referee saw, or thought she saw.
I can be pretty certain the referee thought she saw the ball strike the player on the arm and I can see how she thought that. Otherwise, she wouldnt have given a penalty or a caution to the player she believed committed the offence.
Neither you or I or Martiju can say what the officials saw or thought they saw.
I am certain that if she was doubtful she wouldn't have called it.
 
one said:
I am thinking about this and trying to justify how a referee can give a penalty for a handball he/she didn't see. I can't. The only thing I can think of is some sort of optical illusion that the referee thinks he/she has seem something that didn't actually happen.
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We're definitely taught that, and I believe that. Though I did find it interesting in Webb's autobiography that he talked about a couple of calls he made that he didn't see but was sure must have happened--and was relieved to see he was right when he saw the video from the game. Perhaps that is what happened here--but she was wrong.
 
Yeah - that's the other possibility. Calling something based on ' circumstantial evidence' for fear of having missed it. In that case the evidence must be solid and very strong which wasn't in the OP. For example you see a straight leg tackle going towards a shin, you lose sight for a split second and don't see contact and then you see a broken shin bone. In the OP there was evidence for either case. It's possible the ref called it for fear of having missed a pen.
 
Think you are all reading too much into this. The referee sees the shot come in, she sees an arm out, she thinks the ball hits that arm, and gives a penalty. It's a mistake, but I can absolutely understand why that mistake has happened.
 
RustyRef said:
Think you are all reading too much into this. The referee sees the shot come in, she sees an arm out, she thinks the ball hits that arm, and gives a penalty. It's a mistake, but I can absolutely understand why that mistake has happened.
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If what you say is true, I don't take that as an acceptable mistake given she can also see another defender standing directly in front of the defender which was cautioned for handball. She has give a pen and card by guessing the ball hit the arm knowing well that there is a good chance it could have hit the defender in front.
 
JamesL said:
That's conjecture. We know nothing of what the referee saw, or thought she saw.
I can be pretty certain the referee thought she saw the ball strike the player on the arm and I can see how she thought that. Otherwise, she wouldnt have given a penalty or a caution to the player she believed committed the offence.
Neither you or I or Martiju can say what the officials saw or thought they saw.
I am certain that if she was doubtful she wouldn't have called it.
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Fair points James. You're correct of course, like most 'TV decisions', we're only guessing at the referee's view/thought process.

However given the speed of the incident, don't think its unreasonable to assume there must have been an element of doubt in her mind.

You're correct of course, its equally reasonable to assume than an official at this level WOULD be sure before making such a KMI.

My final point that I was going to bring up before Social L did was what Howard Webb told an RA meeting he came to - NEVER guess if you're not 100% sure. His example he told us about happened in a European game. He was convinced, but had not actually seen, a handball by an attacker leading directly to a goal - as he didn't actually see the infringement he gave the goal. It was just before HT and so convinced was he that he was probably wrong that he warned his ARs there might be some dissent as they came off for HT. The AR closest to the incident looked at him aghast and told him it wasn't even close to handball! As SL says he told us that the lesson there was never assume what may have happened if you're not 100% sure on a KMI.
 
one said:
If what you say is true, I don't take that as an acceptable mistake given she can also see another defender standing directly in front of the defender which was cautioned for handball. She has give a pen and card by guessing the ball hit the arm knowing well that there is a good chance it could have hit the defender in front.
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I didn't say it was an acceptable mistake, and I'm sure the observer will be saying the same. What I said is that I can understand why she made the mistake, that doesn't make it acceptable though. I wouldn't say she guessed, rather she has seen it and was sure enough that it hit Ellen White's arm to give a penalty.
 
RustyRef said:
I didn't say it was an acceptable mistake, and I'm sure the observer will be saying the same. What I said is that I can understand why she made the mistake, that doesn't make it acceptable though. I wouldn't say she guessed, rather she has seen it and was sure enough that it hit Ellen White's arm to give a penalty.
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No Observers in WSL games. They are managed through the same Evaluation process as in the EPL (and Championship I think) ... so every single decision made by all the officials in the 90 mins will be assessed and marked right or wrong. Outcome likely to be similar on this KMI though!
 
Interestingly, if the only angle I'd seen was the one behind the goal and I'd seen it in real time I think I'd be going PK too as White's hands are extended and the way she goes down suggests contact.
 
Thanks for all the comments - interesting and informative. On a general note, that's why I like this forum we can (usually! ;) )discuss these incidents in a constructive way that helps us all learn.
 
PinnerPaul said:
Thanks for all the comments - interesting and informative. On a general note, that's why I like this forum we can (usually! ;) )discuss these incidents in a constructive way that helps us all learn.
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Easy fix mate

It was only a penalty because all referees love/hate* <insert team here>

Discuss 😉

* Delete as appropriate
 
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