The Ref Stop

Wolves v Citee

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Confirming what we suspected - Gary Lineker has been tweeting that before MOTD they speak to a PGMOL contact who allegedly confirmed the guidance that we suspected, that they want these handballs calling.

I have been a long-time proponent of rewriting the handball law but I am quite disgusted if it’s true that the PL/UEFA/FIFA/whoever thinks they can overwrite the LOTG.
 
The Ref Stop
Padfoot said:
Seriously. Stop digging.

You’re beginning to look a little silly now.
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The Laws say this not my wording.

Some of you want to 100% stick to the letter of the law and that’s fine but in this one where the law says you can’t score with your hand you’re happy to go away from that.

Can’t have it both ways.
 
Peter Grove said:
There is a video of a FIFA-qualified refereeing instructor giving the same (or very similar) interpretations as those that seemed to be being used in the World Cup
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I'm aware of the seminar given to officials in the USA which clearly indicated that penalties should be awarded when the ball hits the hand/arm of a player who has gone to ground in the PA. Although I recall this specifically speaking about defender blocks, I'm sure the logic extends to attackers also
@cwyeary kindly pointed me in the direction of the UEFA Referee Assistance Programe
https://www.dutchreferee.com/refereeing-assistance-programme/
The 2018-1 and 2017-2 downloads are 10Gb each
I recall that there are 128 video match scenarios in each package. In a timed test, you need to decide on the restart and discipline
The HB incidents are consistent with the teachings in the seminar
alexgr said:
Confirming what we suspected - Gary Lineker has been tweeting that before MOTD they speak to a PGMOL contact who allegedly confirmed the guidance that we suspected, that they want these handballs calling
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Exactly what i would have expected

I had some difficult exchanges with @cwyeary during the World Cup, because I was appalled by the HB decisions given throughout the tournament. However cwy does seem to have a very good handle on the latest guidance given to International Referees
Do I think the Wolves attacker should have been penalized for HB? I'd be 70/30 in favor of no
Do I think PGMOL officials are given guidance to penalize this a HB? I'm virtually certain they are
 
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RobOda said:
Phrase it regarding the conflict between the handball law and the spirit of the game then?
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There is no conflict in this situation.

It’s football.....**** happens. Deal with it.

It’s because of the whining and bitching of spoilt prima donnas that the idea of ‘spirit of the game ‘ exists.....instead of telling them to shut up and get on with things.
 
Big Cat said:
I had some difficult exchanges with @cwyeary during the World Cup, because I was appalled by the HB decisions given throughout the tournament.
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I suppose that's where a lot of our debates came from. I was approaching it from the angle of "what will the people assessing the WC refs say" vs "how should grassroots refs apply the laws". In many of those situations, my view that FIFA will tell the refs that it was a correct penalty and someone on here saying they wouldn't give it during a grassroots match are both legitimate and correct statements. Probably says more about how parts of law 12 are written than anything else.
 
All said and done, I don't penalize handball offences very often
With some exceptions, players are less likely to handle the ball deliberately the closer they are to their own goal, because the implications of doing so outweigh any advantage. Until the law changes, I'll continue to apply the law using only the two clarifications in the book. This approach has served me well so far; besides, I don't agree with the direction in which elite referees are being steered
 
bester said:
http://www.skysports.com/football/n...-willy-bolys-goal-should-have-been-disallowed

Gallacher making the same argument about attackers arms not being including in the determination of offside position. Pure waffle.
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Despite my assertion that i would have disallowed this goal, Gallacher's comments are utter nonsense
Page 13 of the book, "Football's Laws are relatively simple, compared to other team sports". Not when they're being unofficially changed on the fly and fed to the media on an inconsistent basis leaving referees everywhere mystified
 
spuddy1878 said:
He says.

You could argue it is within the laws of the game because in the offside law, it shows a diagram of a player level with another player and his arm is ahead. It says you can't give offside because you can only give it as offside if he can score with that part of the body. So that infers that you cannot score with your hand.
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Sorry, but that's a common misconception and untrue.The reason why the hands and arms are not counted has nothing to do with the hands being a body part you can't score with (partly because, as several people have pointed out, you can score a goal with an unintentional hand contact). The IFAB has given the reason why the hands/arms are not included in the FAQ to Law 11, as follows:
The hands or arms are not included when judging offside position; this is true for all players including the goalkeepers. This view is supported by and helps assistant referees throughout the world as it is often difficult to identify the exact position of the hands and arms.
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spuddy1878 said:
Some of you want to 100% stick to the letter of the law and that’s fine but in this one where the law says you can’t score with your hand you’re happy to go away from that.
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That's also completely untrue - the law does not say that you can't score a goal with your hand. You seem to think it's implied because of your belief about why the hands/arms are not considered for the purposes of offside - but your belief is mistaken.
 
Late to party.
They should show this in basic ref course as classic NOT handball.
If your disallowing this for your match control you're basically cheating the other team.
Sometimes you've gotta make unpopular decisions.
deal with it or go take up fishing.
Goal goal goal
 
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spuddy1878 said:
The Laws say this not my wording.

Some of you want to 100% stick to the letter of the law and that’s fine but in this one where the law says you can’t score with your hand you’re happy to go away from that.

Can’t have it both ways.
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What percentage of the laws do you suggest we stick to? And can you please highlight the bits we don't have to be so stringent about?

Asking for a friend ...
 
Ciley Myrus said:
I had another look and think at it

If you are penalising this on the sole basis of handball as per lotg then for me, you are factually incorrect

If you are penalising it on a match control/safe option etc then I dont agree but I understand

If anybody is teliing me the scorer deliberatley handled that then am sorry in advance but your fooling yourself
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Deliberately as in thought to himself 'Yeah, I'm going to handle that ball'?
No - but this would very rarely happen.
And that question is why the law, as written, is stupid. And contradictory - after all, FIFA have made it very clear we're not to be mindreaders.

IFAB need to change it to 'carelessly handles the ball' and provide some clear guidance on a range of scenarios.

Personally, even without IFAB stuffing around with the directives in top secret of late, I would still have penalised this one. He's had every opportunity to ensure the ball didn't hit his hand, and just stuffed it up. That's on the player, and that fits the bill for DHB. But that highlights how the law itself is so open to interpretation.

When the game is inevitably going to have so many subjective decisions, we all need to be able to start with the same position on the law. When IFAB can't even help us with that....well, the application of the laws are a completely lucky dip for the players. Nobody has any idea what to expect from one game to the next.

spuddy1878 said:
The Laws say this not my wording.

Some of you want to 100% stick to the letter of the law and that’s fine but in this one where the law says you can’t score with your hand you’re happy to go away from that.

Can’t have it both ways.
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You sure the law says that? Which page?
 
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I took it on myself to e-mail the IFAB about this situation

Sir,

There has been a considerable debate arising from a recent Premier League match incident. At Wolverhampton v Manchester City, Wolves scored a goal via an unintentional handball. This has sparked a debate as to the legality of the goal.

Some referees have argued that as it is not a deliberate handball, the goal must stand.

Others have argued that the spirit of the game expects that the goal would be disallowed as 'football does not expect players to score via their hand, intentional or otherwise.'

It has been a great debate, but we are wondering which interpretation is correct? If a goal is scored via the hand of an attacker unintentionally, should the goal stand? If so, would this (goal via unintentional handball) be something to consider amending within the laws, or would this be working as intended?

Any advice on this matter would be much appreciated,

Thank you,

-Rob
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, this is the reply:

Dear Rob

Thank you for your e mail

You are correct about the 'spirit' of the Laws and what football expects; we are currently reviewing the guidance for handball to see if we can make it clearer in several areas including this one

Best wishes

David

David Elleray
Technical Director of The IFAB
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So, you don't give the goal and it is handball by 'spirit of the game' is my take from that.
 
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