The Ref Stop

Buffon leaves his mark

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Andrew Smith said:
Penalty or not, open to debate - more important Michael Oliver has just shown the 400 referees in the youth league I volunteer for who are 14, 15, 16 years of age, that one of our top referees gives them support when they are abused on a Saturday or Sunday morning. Well done Michael Oliver.
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Credit to Mr Oliver indeed, but if you look back at the last 2 weeks of champions league football that's what we've been shown and rightly so I believe. Felix in the first game between Liverpool and City, De La Hoz yesterday by dismissing Pep and again today Oliver! well done Sirs
 
The Ref Stop
Andrew Smith said:
Penalty or not, open to debate - more important Michael Oliver has just shown the 400 referees in the youth league I volunteer for who are 14, 15, 16 years of age, that one of our top referees gives them support when they are abused on a Saturday or Sunday morning. Well done Michael Oliver.
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Mr Oliver must of learnt from the Joe Hart incident. Remember when another GK Hart put his head up against Oliver's head and made contact and got away with it.
 
NorthLondonRef said:
I'll tell you what I find interesting though. The contact on the back came ever so slightly before he tried to hook the ball away. I think Vazquez was already on the way down after he felt the touch so theoretically what happens afterwards is irrelevant but I envisage a scenario where the defender manages to get a big foot/kick on the ball and clear it away and it's deemed an acceptable tackle and no penalty by a referee at the time.

Seems to sway decision making and thinking a little bit. As I write this I'm recalling loads of challenges in Premier League games I've seen live at grounds recently where the defender gets a nudge in first on the attacker and in the same moment or a couple of microseconds later hooks the ball away and nothing is ever given.
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Interpretation is what it comes down to, If you do anything in the box that gives the referee something to interpret then you run the risk, that’s what Benatia did & it went against him.
 
Brave from Oliver and correct; I would have had to be there, but I can imagine not deeming that blatant enough to change the course of the tie in the final minutes. On the subject of penalties, why is nobody talking about the Robertson/Sterling penalty shouts from yesterday? Neither time does Sterling dive (in my opinion) and the defender gets nowhere near the ball. More reason for City to be aggrieved?
 
Men in Black said:
Interpretation is what it comes down to, If you do anything in the box that gives the referee something to interpret then you run the risk, that’s what Benatia did & it went against him.
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Exactly and at that level, just as yesterday with the foul on Virgil, defenders being paid that amount of money should know better. That's not taking it away from a great call by Olli. Merely for the fact that it took a big set of cohonies (can i say that here??) and cool head to give it in the 93rd minute of the CL QF!
 
NorthLondonRef said:
He had to I reckon. Had Benetia cleared the ball with his attempt, then Oliver has a decision to make. The fact he made no contact on the ball makes it easier and clearer for him to give the PK in my opinion.
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I have to say it’s soft as hell in real time, given 6 replays I guess you have to give it, but what I’m saying is with taking everything into consideration Oliver showed some nuts.
 
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I've gone through all the comments above, and I'm glad to see such an interesting discussion here... what a stark contrast with other places!

To me, it's a soft penalty all day. What happens with soft penalties? They're penalties at the end of the day. Benatia should have known better than this, and Mr Oliver showed Europe he's got great balls by giving that game-changing call in the nick of time.

Now let's get back to the situation. Oliver blows the whistle. Juve players make a mess out of it. Buffon goes nuts and has a go at the ref. I honestly think that no one of the six- or seven-man crew England sent, at that time, could recall who had committed the offence. I bet Oliver's heart rate rose dramatically then, even though he managed to keep his cool and show Buffon the way out of the field.

Said this, it's a red card for dogso. Why not an attempt to play the ball? Benatia puses Vázquez from behind and jumps at him. Benatia has no chance of winning the ball, no matter how soft or mild the offence is. The 2016 law amendment wasn't made for this kind of professional fouls, but for those where a defender with an actual chance to get the ball commit a mistake and bring the opponent down with an innocent foul in the wrong place.



P.S.: For discussion: situations like this make me think that a yellow card for diving is insufficient. Stand in Lucas Vázquez's shoes for a moment and imagine you know you have not been fouled (not the case, but still). You have two options: to dive or not to dive. If you dive and you deceive the referee, you get a penalty, your team likely progress, and you get away with that. If you dive and the referee catches you, you just get a yellow card, your team won't lose a player, and you still have a decent shot at whatever your match goals are. If you don't dive, you never get anything.
I'm of the opinion that any player attempting to deceive the referee should be removed from the field. Be it to a sin bin, be it to the changing room.
 
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After seeing multiple replays this is not a penalty for me. There is not enough contact or force to warrant a 'careless' foul. I do understand this is a ITOOTR and if Oliver thought its a foul then so be it. Given the occasion though, I would want to be reasonably sure of it. The defender actually manages to kick the ball before it touches the attacker (not that it proves it not a foul).
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Just one thing though, the defender touched the back of the striker with both hands for a split second, there was very little to no force applied. Its the commentary I hear and the reason given by some referees that keep the myth "hand on the back" alive. I get it at least once a game when players shout "hands on the back ref" expecting a free kick. Unless there is a careless push, there is no offence.

On the delivery of the decision. If you do give a match winning penalty in the 93rd minute, there is no need to hold your pose (possibly to show that you have the balls to make tough decisions :) ) in a PA full of defenders. Call it and move away backward, you still get defenders coming at you but they will be all in front of you and easier to deal with.
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And for the life of me, I don't see how this can be a foul and not a DOGSO (red if if for push, or yellow if for C/L tackle). The attacker had enough time to either head the ball or chest it down and then kick it in from 5 yards out. They don't come much more obvious than this. I have a feeling if MO didn't have to deal with the aftermath of the pen decision, he would have 'remembered' to sanction the foul.

And yes Buffon had to go. No two ways about it. If you are deliberately shoved by a player, you have to get rid of them.
 
cwyeary said:
I've yet to see any evidence from the multiple video angles that the defender ever touches the ball. A still shot proves nothing.
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Ok, lets say the video or the still image are not conclusive. While it may not definitively prove he did touch the ball, it does not prove he didn't touch the ball either. From what I see it suggests that he did. Either way, as I said, its not a determination for a foul or no foul on its own. Whether the challenge was careless or not (in lotg definition) is the determinant.
 
One thing nobody has mentioned which I’m quite surprised about

V A R

Won’t be long until it will be showing it’s ugly head, so where would that have left us last night. Or would VAR not apply to giving a penalty.
 
For me this is a clear dogso red card. When the laws changed we were taught that all upper body offences were still red. Remember, its an attempt to play the ball OR no possibility of playing the ball. I think in this case it's the latter.

Spot on decision by MO. Soft? Maybe, but you cant go flying into the back of someone like that and hope to get away with it.

As for Buffon, I understand its an emotional moment for him, but that behaviour was unacceptable and was dealt with correctly in my view.

I expect Juve will be charged for failure to control players.

From a footballing perspective... one of the best penalties I've ever seen. 6 minute wait, the whole 2 leg tie riding on that spot kick..and bang top corner, cool as ice.

It's an absolute travesty that a player of Buffons calibre will retire having never won a.champions league. Had he left juve during thr match fixing scandal then things might have turned out differently for him.
 
Men in Black said:
One thing nobody has mentioned which I’m quite surprised about

V A R

Won’t be long until it will be showing it’s ugly head, so where would that have left us last night. Or would VAR not apply to giving a penalty.
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Uefa are not inplementing VAR so no debate to be had here.
But fwiw I dont think VAR gets involved here... or possibly MO makes a no call with the hope VAR corrects him for the easier sell, but again I think VAR would not get involved as, as crazy as this sounds, I dont think either decision is "clearly wrong".
 
one said:
After seeing multiple replays this is not a penalty for me. There is not enough contact or force to warrant a 'careless' foul. I do understand this is a ITOOTR and if Oliver thought its a foul then so be it. Given the occasion though, I would want to be reasonably sure of it. The defender actually manages to kick the ball before it touches the attacker (not that it proves it not a foul).
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Sorry, but it is careless challenge all the time. Could you play the ball fairly - NO, so it has to be a offence.
DOGSO - was it a genuine challenge for the ball, with a chance of success - NO, so he should have gone as well. However, given what happened later I can understand them missing the player.

On the Lineker comment :poop: - imagine what their comments would have been if a Juv player had done that against an English club. hardly anybody in the media supports the English Ref's in Europe, when they get the big games and make the correct decisions. BUT with the match on BT Sport nobody saw or heard it..
 
I think it's been said several times above but I'm still waiting for one of the members of the angry Twitter brigade to quote where in the LOTG that sentiment should play a part in red card decisions ..... I guess this Sunday morning I wont be sending off John at right back as it's his dogs birthday
 
Phil Neville said the other day his player should not have been sent off as she had waited so long for her opportunity and had such a good game in the first half!
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Phil Neville said the other day his player should not have been sent off as she was just back from injury and having a good season, or something like that!
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Imagine when Zidane headbutted the Italian fella in the world cup final, the referee looked at it and said 'Well, he's retiring after today so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt'.
 
QuaverRef said:
I think it's been said several times above but I'm still waiting for one of the members of the angry Twitter brigade to quote where in the LOTG that sentiment should play a part in red card decisions ..... I guess this Sunday morning I wont be sending off John at right back as it's his dogs birthday
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I don't think sentiment was the reason. The usual process is, recognise the foul then you think of dogso and sanctions. Hell broke loose before Oliver had a chance to think about dogso. So my thoughts are he forgot/missed it.
 
one said:
I don't think sentiment was the reason. The usual process is, recognise the foul then you think of dogso and sanctions. Hell broke loose before Oliver had a chance to think about dogso. So my thoughts are he forgot/missed it.
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Me on public park alone on Sunday, I would excuse myself for oveelooking the original red card in the same situation as last night
But Englands six top officials? And not one thought to say even after it all cooled down "erm Micheal, mind red card Juv 2 for the original foul"? (Or whatever number he was)
 
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