The Ref Stop

What does immediately after mean?

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I do find it interesting that when deciding ‘obviousness’ we have now been given 5 factors to consider but with ‘immediateness’ we are left to our own devices!

For what it’s worth, I’d see the OP as immediate. But the video is great as it forces a choice around immediacy as there’s no way that should be called a penalisable handball otherwise
 
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This is the only 'official' guidance we have. It is the explanation from the 2020/21 laws when it was first introduced. Though at that time, a team-mate handling was also included. I also think the OP is an offence.

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Russell Jones said:
I do find it interesting that when deciding ‘obviousness’ we have now been riven 5 factors to consider but with ‘immediateness’ we are left to our own devices!

For what it’s worth, I’d see the OP as immediate. But the video is great as it forces a choice around immediacy as there’s no way that should be called a penalisable handball otherwise
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Yeah, I think the video should be disallowed, but it’s a tough call to make at lower levels.
I hate all guidance that is left to subjectivity. Handball has always been a problem. The problem is when they simplified it they all handball was an offence, the game didn’t like it. So we are back to subjectivity.
 
Ori said:
Yeah, I think the video should be disallowed, but it’s a tough call to make at lower levels.
I hate all guidance that is left to subjectivity. Handball has always been a problem. The problem is when they simplified it they all handball was an offence, the game didn’t like it. So we are back to subjectivity.
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But at least on 80+% of handball decisions it's a simple binary subjective decision between whether or not the hand / arm in question is in a natural position for the body movement being undertaken.

For me, the biggest handball issue is the vicious circle where players appeal EVERY time the ball hits the hand / arm ---> refs giving in to the pressure to award offences where there are none --> greater likelihood of future appeals etc. etc.

The only way we, as a community, break this cycle, is to bravely and repeatedly turn down the spurious claims for handball offences and to continually stress to players that (outside of the OP situation) gaining an advantage from an accidental HB is NOT an offence.
 
Russell Jones said:
For me, the biggest handball issue is the vicious circle where players appeal EVERY time the ball hits the hand / arm ---> refs giving in to the pressure to award offences where there are none --> greater likelihood of future appeals etc. etc.

The only way we, as a community, break this cycle, is to bravely and repeatedly turn down the spurious claims for handball offences and to continually stress to players that (outside of the OP situation) gaining an advantage from an accidental HB is NOT an offence.
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Totally. 👍

Whenever I hear those vain appeals of "Handball Ref" I always respond "No, ball to hand - play on!". :cool:
 
My two cents: this is clearly immediate within the spirit of the “inadvertent” handling by a scorer of it had been inadvertent.

But I have handling without that. The player is jumping at the opponent kicking the ball with his arms out in front of his body towards the ball. That isn’t accidental or natural position.
 
Ori said:
Yeah, I think the video should be disallowed, but it’s a tough call to make at lower levels.
I hate all guidance that is left to subjectivity. Handball has always been a problem. The problem is when they simplified it they all handball was an offence, the game didn’t like it. So we are back to subjectivity.
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I dispute that they ever “simplified” anything. They created a hot mess that didn’t work.
 
Russell Jones said:
The only way we, as a community, break this cycle, is to bravely and repeatedly turn down the spurious claims for handball offences and to continually stress to players that (outside of the OP situation) gaining an advantage from an accidental HB is NOT an offence.
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Kes said:
Whenever I hear those vain appeals of "Handball Ref" I always respond "No, ball to hand - play on!". :cool:
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"Ball to hand" is what created this problem. The real simple solution is to return to whenever the prevailing ruling was that the hand needed to be "against" the body and didn't affect the trajectory of the ball. That is the simplest, most straightforward, and easiest to interpret rendition of the handball law. Everything else, including what we have now is an overcomplication.

Because of what we have now, everyone; referees, players, and spectators, don't actually know what a handball is because the law is written in such a way that nobody can know. Of course there will be vicious appeals.
socal lurker said:
I dispute that they ever “simplified” anything. They created a hot mess that didn’t work.
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Correct, as evidenced by the OP.
 
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socal lurker said:
But I have handling without that. The player is jumping at the opponent kicking the ball with his arms out in front of his body towards the ball. That isn’t accidental or natural position.
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The player has put his arms there before the ball is kicked, therefore a deliberate handball (ie arm to ball) is not possible. I can understand an argument that the arms are in an unnatural position. However, the arm position has absolutely not made their body ‘unnaturally bigger’ .. if the arms weren’t there then the ball would simply strike the torso instead.
 
I love how we can see things differently and have good rationale for both sides.


Russell Jones said:
The player has put his arms there before the ball is kicked,
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Why do you think he put his arms there? Would have done that if the ball was not being kicked that way? Players at that level can read what is about to happen to the ball before it starts to happen.
Having said that I would definitely not call this deliberate at lower levels.
 
one said:
I love how we can see things differently and have good rationale for both sides.

Why do you think he put his arms there? Would have done that if the ball was not being kicked that way? Players at that level can read what is about to happen to the ball before it starts to happen.
Having said that I would definitely not call this deliberate at lower levels.
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I think we see it the same :). I totally agree that he has put his arms there because he knows / fears that the ball is about to be blasted straight at him. Which is why I can see the argument for the arms being seen as in an unnatural position ... though, personally, I instead see it as a natural reflex to protect himself. But whatever his motivations, in law it's definitely not deliberate (arm to ball) and it's definitely not made him unnaturally bigger.
 
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Russell Jones said:
in law it's definitely not deliberate (arm to ball)
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Not necessarily. Instictive does always mean not deliberate. Neither does not arm to ball mean not deliberate all the time.

I am not saying it is an offence. Just that I can see both sides of the argument. That's how subjective handball and the interpretation of the law can be
 
Russell Jones said:
I think we see it the same :). I totally agree that he has put his arms there because he knows / fears that the ball is about to be blasted straight at him. Which is why I can see the argument for the arms being seen as in an unnatural position ... though, personally, I instead see it as a natural reflex to protect himself. But whatever his motivations, in law it's definitely not deliberate (arm to ball) and it's definitely not made him unnaturally bigger.
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I don’t think “reflex” applies when he is deliberately running directly at where the ball is going to be kicked in an effort to block it.
 
I never even considered this being anything over than an accidental handball offence.

Would peoples opinion change if it was a woman protecting her breasts?
 
socal lurker said:
I don’t think “reflex” applies when he is deliberately running directly at where the ball is going to be kicked in an effort to block it.
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That's fair. Happy to say it's the player's choice to put his hands there to protect himself. If he did this AFTER the ball was kicked, you could make a case for a deliberate handball (though still harsh IMO). But given it was done before, we're then only considering whether that choice made his body 'unnaturally bigger' ....
 
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