The Ref Stop

Man United Vs Leeds - Hair Pulling

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As with the Keane one, the force is negligible and there could be an element of doubt it was fully intentional to go for the hair. For me to be classed as violent conduct, it has to be deliberate, sustained and some evidence of force for a sending off. The Jack Stephens one last season is a good example where using the guidance is correct because whilst the force was not too strong, it was deliberate and there is no doubt it was a clear hair pull.

I guess the counter argument would be, just don't put your hands anywhere near someone's hair and there would be no issues.
 
Paul_10 said:
As with the Keane one, the force is negligible and there could be an element of doubt it was fully intentional to go for the hair. For me to be classed as violent conduct, it has to be deliberate, sustained and some evidence of force for a sending off. The Jack Stephens one last season is a good example where using the guidance is correct because whilst the force was not too strong, it was deliberate and there is no doubt it was a clear hair pull.

I guess the counter argument would be, just don't put your hands anywhere near someone's hair and there would be no issues.
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I think any hair pulling incident is going to be deliberate - I can't see how someone can accidentally pull someone's hair. If you attempt to pull their shirt, for example, but grab their hair - you have still deliberately pulled them by the hair. It doesn't need to be sustained, it just has to be more than negligible force. From memory, Keane's was definitely more than negligible force - I'm just not convinced this one clears the very low threshold for it to be deemed VC.
 
Not negligible for me. There was enough force in it open up the 'bun' bundled hair.
On deliberateness, there was intent there to pull something (I'm sure there is a joke to be made there). Surely he realises there is a bundle of hair he is holding onto there.
 
Think players have had enough opportunity to learn that hair pulling of any sort, accidental or not, will result in a red card. PGMOL have been very consistent with this to their credit.
 
In the context of prem this season I’m surprised.

I am conscious that the LotG does not say we should find whatever excuses we can to avoid sanctioning players;)

But easy red for me. Wasn’t there quite a widely reported incident in the womens game recently that might have affected this?
 
TBF I am very happy with how incidents like hair pulling, spitting at and biting are managed in the game. These are unacceptable acts and if dealt with lightly they become regular occurrences. The latter was not specifically in laws but was added a few years ago. I won't be surprised if hair pulling is also added soon.
 
Look at Martinez's fingers, they didn't fully clench.
Also note that DCL's hand slapped on Martinez's face before that. So in my view it was a reactionary aborted hair pulling attempt, very loose pulling, I wouldn't give it a red, but one yellow for each of DCL and Martinez.
CaptainsPlease said:
Better clip here skip to 3:14 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/videos/c62j0yqzn8vo
Martinez goes for it twice so it's definitely intentional and it is not negligible force.
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I'm torn on this one. I think there's been good points for/against VC made in this thread.

I wonder whether the LoTG might be updated in future to reflect this kind of incident, with similar wording to Offences where an object is thrown?

Offences where an object (or the ball) is thrown
In all cases, the referee takes the appropriate disciplinary action:​

  • reckless – caution the offender for unsporting behaviour
  • using excessive force – send off the offender for violent conduct
 
Wasn't going to comment, as I'm a Manchester United fan - but from reading the comments above, it certainly doesn't sound like a 'clear and obvious error' - so should VAR have been anywhere near it? Or is the fact that the referee wil clearly not have seen it been enough for the review (and CL grassing Martinez to the ref! ;))
 
one said:
TBF I am very happy with how incidents like hair pulling, spitting at and biting are managed in the game. These are unacceptable acts and if dealt with lightly they become regular occurrences. The latter was not specifically in laws but was added a few years ago. I won't be surprised if hair pulling is also added soon.
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I totally agree. Hair pulling is sneaky/nasty and has potential for injury. It has no place in football - let's stamp it out now.
 
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i don't like it

nothing about it is violent and it's a very fleeting pull - would much prefer 'the authorities' to focus on much bigger issues with our game

i think it's vastly different to spitting or biting as well (this type of hair pull, not all hair pulls)
 
I don't agree with the zero tolerance approach either. Deliberate premeditated hair pulling should have a zero tolerance approach, but instances like this shouldn't IMO.

Appreciate the officials probably had nowhere to go, but my opinion of what football stakeholders generally want is that if it's an instinctive movement in an aerial battle, the force should be taken in to account. The womens champions league one would still be a red as she was yanked back with a fair bit of force, but instances like this I do think a caution would suffice.
 
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RefereeX said:
I don't agree with the zero tolerance approach either. Deliberate premeditated hair pulling should have a zero tolerance approach, but instances like this shouldn't IMO.

Appreciate the officials probably had nowhere to go, but my opinion of what football stakeholders generally want is that if it's an instinctive movement in an aerial battle, the force should be taken in to account. The womens champions league one would still be a red as she was yanked back with a fair bit of force, but instances like this I do think a caution would suffice.
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I think even the PGMO wording suggests this perhaps should not be a red. For one, the players are challenging for the ball and secondly there is no force, if this occured way off the ball as their wording says then I probably would support the red card more.

Of course on the flip side, since that missed incident by Mike Dean, the PGMO has been consistent that any type of hair pull will be a red card. It will be interesting given the reaction by pundits/fans whether this will continue or not.
 
Where does the game go from here in respect of hair pulling? I think everyone would agree it was a deliberate grab of the hair in the first instance but what happened next is clearly up for debate, force? , finger got caught in the hair schrunchie causing it to come loose? deliberate pull of the hair? Violent conduct? Ref clearly didn’t see it live as he clearly ignores Calvert Lewins initial protest and it’s the VAR intervention that results in the red card.

You cant get away from the fact that players shouldn’t pull other players hair. And due to the current crop of incidents a new directive may be needed around the amount of force used?

I believe the Keane incident deserved a RC, also the Arsenal v Chelsea incident but last nights probably only deserved a YC as reckless or probably more so unsporting behaviour.

It’s a conundrum but easily solved if players stopped pulling hair!
 
RefereeX said:
Deliberate premeditated hair pulling should have a zero tolerance approach
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Remove the word 'premeditated' then I'd agree.

RefereeX said:
if it's an instinctive movement in an aerial battle, the force should be taken in to account.
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Define instinctive movement. Instinctive moment for a footballing action deserves other considerations. If a player's instinctive movement is to pull another player's hair, I dont think football stakeholder generally would, neither should, expect any other considerations.
 
I really am unsure what the debate is about?

First action - normal and a footballing action jumping for the ball.
Second movement - yanks the hair.

Sorry, but I can't see anything other than a red.

If, however, it was all one action and chance involved, I could see why it's could be debatable.
 
@Ryanj91 The debate is that the only justification for violent conduct in law is the use of excessive force.


On Monday Night Football they showed an extract from the PGMO hand book around hair pulling and presented it as law.

@JamesL did you show something from IFAB that said that hair pulling could be considered an offensive action?
 
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