Martinelli incident - Southampton vs Arsenal FA Cup QF
- Thread starter Gabriel
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LothianRef
Member
If he pushed a player like that would you be sending him off?
No but that’s exactly the same as the fact I would send a player off if they called me a cheat but wouldn’t if they said it to their opponent. It’s very different imho.
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
I really think we’ve let things go way too far with referee contact. IMO that should 100% be a send off every time. But in the pro game today, I would have been more surprised by a red than I was by a yellow. I’d love to see the league suspend the player to send the message of hands off the ref, but I’d be completely shocked if they did.
That would be difficult given that leagues do not handle discipline and suspensions (not to mention that it was a FA Cup match, not a league game)!
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
Yeah, this is my thought. He obviously sees a good opportunity to play quickly as Southampton are disorganised, guys at the elite level never switch off.
However, a caution at the absolute minimum. A red as a prize for silly games would have been acceptable.
However, a caution at the absolute minimum. A red as a prize for silly games would have been acceptable.
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
I’m not. That!s not an excuse to touch the ref. We should be much stricter about this. No one should remotely think that is an ok thing to do.
one
RefChat Addict
I think we can all agree the pushing was a deliberate act.
Did he realise it is the referee he is pushing (for whatever reason)?
Yes - knowingly pushing the referee is a clear red
No - he should have. Allowing ignorance as an excuse opens the door to many unacceptable dark arts. Still a red.
There is a fine line between empathy and bottling it.
Did he realise it is the referee he is pushing (for whatever reason)?
Yes - knowingly pushing the referee is a clear red
No - he should have. Allowing ignorance as an excuse opens the door to many unacceptable dark arts. Still a red.
There is a fine line between empathy and bottling it.
LothianRef
Member
Saints fan so feared it was my bias causing me to scream at the TV “Red! RED!!!” 
In all seriousness, I’m showing red for that on a Sunday. Like @one says, I don’t care whether he knew it was the ref he was shoving or not.
As for the question of whether it’s RC if he pushed another player like that, it’s completely irrelevant.
In all seriousness, I’m showing red for that on a Sunday. Like @one says, I don’t care whether he knew it was the ref he was shoving or not.
As for the question of whether it’s RC if he pushed another player like that, it’s completely irrelevant.
one
RefChat Addict
It is not specifically. Are you saying it is not an offence at all or are you saying pushing the referee is a yellow, where would that be in the law?
As referees we fit incidents to clauses in law, or interpretations of them through judgement. For me, and many others, any force used to push a referee is excessive which makes this a VC. If this was accidental, it may be overlooked but certainly not a deliberate act.
I also see you compare this act to similar acts to players. Law 12 defines CRUEF (careless, reckless, Using Excessive Force) for acts (including pushing) against opponents. Including match officials in the same context is wrong. To make the point, a player deliberately and recklessly trips a running opponent from behind and causes him to topple over, yellow card. Now he does the same to the referee. Hope you don't think it is a yellow card.
A few years ago in Australian top flight, a keeper slapped the open palm of the referee with moderate force out of frustration. He got a six months ban (originally a longer ban but appealed).
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
I have not seen it yet…
If the referee is so close that he is interfering with the taking of the kick - at grassroots - to avoid all kinds of hell - this is usually a sign that the referee should manage the free kick ceremonially “on the whistle” (this is not in the laws but is best practice).
On the other hand, it also means if the referee is not interfering, then he shouldn’t be there and shouldn’t have moved there in the first place. I hope when I see the clip he is trying to get out of the area!
No mitigation for pushing the ref tho.
If the referee is so close that he is interfering with the taking of the kick - at grassroots - to avoid all kinds of hell - this is usually a sign that the referee should manage the free kick ceremonially “on the whistle” (this is not in the laws but is best practice).
On the other hand, it also means if the referee is not interfering, then he shouldn’t be there and shouldn’t have moved there in the first place. I hope when I see the clip he is trying to get out of the area!
No mitigation for pushing the ref tho.
Seems to be controversial based on others views, I just don't see a red card here. Context and empathy for the game state is important and its clearly a player chasing the game wanting to get on with it who's got a little over eager. Yellow has the desired effect and Red is completely overboard in my opinion. Not a great look, but Red just feels too much in this scenario.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
OK there are two players down injured - right in front of the ball. The whole world can see it’s going to have to be on the whistle.
The referee is acting according to common sense and protocol. The player is unfeasibly stupid. If you want a red, you can have it. But it’s so mild, I think yellow is acceptable.
deusex
RefChat Addict
Surely you see why a referee needs to be more protected than a player?
LothianRef
Member
It’s not a challenge for the ball (obviously) so careless, reckless etc doesn’t come into it for me. Therefore you’re left to decide whether or not it’s violent conduct. VC does mention excessive force or brutality, but this doesn’t come anywhere near that in my opinion. Caution for lack of respect for the game is adequate for me.
My point about comparing it to pushing a player was that Law 12 mentions VC being against “an opponent, team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person”. It doesn’t say you can push a player sometimes but can’t ever push a match official. If you deem this to be VC then in my mind you’ve also got to send him off if he did that to a player.
I’d be in favour of changing the law so that any deliberate contact with a match official is deemed VC but that’s not how it’s worded just now.
Slight tangent but if you take something like the disallowed Liverpool goal at the Etihad a few months ago there were plenty of people who said it didn’t feel like an offside offence but because of how the law was worded it was probably the correct decision. Similarly here VC maybe feels like it should be the correct decision but by the LOTG I think a caution is correct. It’s a dangerous slope to go down if we start giving decisions based on what we “feel” the correct outcome should be instead of looking at the LOTG.