Liverpool Vs Bournemouth

[RustyRef]

I don't see any reason why I should be expected to dismiss that statement just because it suddenly doesn't suit your argument. Up until the point an additional "clarifying" statement is made or Webb chooses to go on TV and clarify in the next international break, that represents the most official position of PGMOL regarding why this incident didn't result in a VAR recommendation and red card.

Whether tweets are dictated word-for-word by Webb, interpreted from a detailed discussion with the VAR in question, or made up by a 18 year old intern with no refereeing experience who sits vaguely near the hub doesn't really matter. That is for now what PGMOL are telling us. And I think it's obvious rubbish, and worthy of scrutiny as to why they feel it's appropriate to leave that statement standing.


This is going to sound facetious, but having listened to a handful of Mic'd Up clips, I genuinely think you're overstating how difficult it will be to work out from context who's who.

Take this incident as an example.
The ref will be the guy shouting "no handball" at the start of the clip and then telling the Liverpool players to go away.
The AR will be the one who chips in to confirm Ekitike wasn't offside.
The RO will be offering camera angles.
The VAR will be asking the ref to delay and then discussing those camera angles (and also in this case, is Michael Oliver who absolutely has a distinctive accent).
Aside from one example I remember where Sian Massey-Ellis chipped in to point out something the VAR missed, most of the time the AVAR will be the one who you only hear going "yeah, I agree" at the end of the clip.

The question here will be very simple - did he actually consider the second arm/hand contact or did he miss it? It's hard to imagine VAR audio and a replay of their screen that is so cluttered that it wouldn't clarify that question, especially given it's only really the VAR and the RO who we need to listen to in order to work that out.

If you think you can work out who is saying what from that absolute jumble of voices you are doing a lot better than I am. I sometimes struggle even with the captions and colour coding.

I can only suggest you email PGMOL and ask about their conspiracy theories / cover stories, I doubt Howard is on here reading it.

And I’m sorry, but I still think the fact it went against Liverpool has extended your rhetoric, as it has several times in the past. So for that reason, I’m out.

 

[Runner Ref]

If you think you can work out who is saying what from that absolute jumble of voices you are doing a lot better than I am. I sometimes struggle even with the captions and colour coding.

If you believe the comms to be that bad, maybe PGMOL have a major communication issue. Comms is expected at lower levels, albeit they won’t necessarily have comms kits.

If our professional colleagues who do this full time can’t communicate with each other well enough that people can’t understand what they’re going on about over a recording, there’s bigger issues here

 

[RustyRef]

If you believe the comms to be that bad, maybe PGMOL have a major communication issue. Comms is expected at lower levels, albeit they won’t necessarily have comms kits.

If our professional colleagues who do this full time can’t communicate with each other well enough that people can’t understand what they’re going on about over a recording, there’s bigger issues here

Don’t disagree, it sounds chaotic at times and probably should be better.

And for that reason I would challenge anyone on the next Mic’d Up show to shut their eyes and be able to 100% identify which official is talking. I don’t see how it would be even close to possible.

 

[Runner Ref]

Don’t disagree, it sounds chaotic at times and probably should be better.

And for that reason I would challenge anyone on the next Mic’d Up show to shut their eyes and be able to 100% identify which official is talking. I don’t see how it would be even close to possible.

But as @GraemeS says, it can be released to the likes of Sky and Dale whatshisname. I’m sure they could dumb down who is saying what.

 

[RustyRef]

But as @GraemeS says, it can be released to the likes of Sky and Dale whatshisname. I’m sure they could dumb down who is saying what.

Possibly. But what if they guess and get it wrong, that could make the situation even worse. They think VAR said something but it was actually an AR, or vice versa, we’d have even more conspiracy theories flying around.

I’m sure Howard Webb has thought about all of the options. After all he is the one that wants to let the VAR audio go out live during games, but IFAB won’t let it happen.

 

[Runner Ref]

Possibly. But what if they guess and get it wrong, that could make the situation even worse. They think VAR said something but it was actually an AR, or vice versa, we’d have even more conspiracy theories flying around.

I’m sure Howard Webb has thought about all of the options. After all he is the one that wants to let the VAR audio go out live during games, but IFAB won’t let it happen.

Guess and get it wrong just like the officials sometimes do…….

PGMOL have PR people. I’m sure they could clear any confusion up with the media they release it to.

I agree that Howard seems fairly open. But I’d say he’s behind Willie Collum in Scotland (and maybe Spain based on what @bester shared- but I don’t know the ins and outs for how they do it)

 

[RefereeX]

The question here will be very simple - did he actually consider the second arm/hand contact or did he miss it? It's hard to imagine VAR audio and a replay of their screen that is so cluttered that it wouldn't clarify that question, especially given it's only really the VAR and the RO who we need to listen to in order to work that out.

Out of interest, and I'm not trying to start an argument for the sake of it, but what difference would it make?
Either way, it's a mistake in my opinion, but whether that mistake is a result of him failing to spot the handball or failing to realise that the handball denied an OGSO, it's a mistake. What are Joe Public expecting to gain by hearing the details of the mistake immediately?

If, for example, Man United's management team made a tactical decision that ultimately backfired and cost them a point or whatever, would the general public expect to be able to publicly hear the discussions that resulted in that tactical decision?

 

[es1]

Out of interest, and I'm not trying to start an argument for the sake of it, but what difference would it make?
Either way, it's a mistake in my opinion, but whether that mistake is a result of him failing to spot the handball or failing to realise that the handball denied an OGSO, it's a mistake. What are Joe Public expecting to gain by hearing the details of the mistake immediately?

If, for example, Man United's management team made a tactical decision that ultimately backfired and cost them a point or whatever, would the general public expect to be able to publicly hear the discussions that resulted in that tactical decision?

I think I'd like to know if it was an error of judgement (not thinking it's deliberate handball) or an error of negligence (not actually checking the 2nd action)

One I'd understand, one I wouldn't

 

[RustyRef]

Out of interest, and I'm not trying to start an argument for the sake of it, but what difference would it make?
Either way, it's a mistake in my opinion, but whether that mistake is a result of him failing to spot the handball or failing to realise that the handball denied an OGSO, it's a mistake. What are Joe Public expecting to gain by hearing the details of the mistake immediately?

If, for example, Man United's management team made a tactical decision that ultimately backfired and cost them a point or whatever, would the general public expect to be able to publicly hear the discussions that resulted in that tactical decision?

Agree, we don’t always get a reason when the government makes a mistake which trashes the economy and costs us all money, yet football fans expect every refereeing mistake to be explained. It doesn’t make any sense.

 

[Runner Ref]

Agree, we don’t always get a reason when the government makes a mistake which trashes the economy and costs us all money, yet football fans expect every refereeing mistake to be explained. It doesn’t make any sense.

2 wrongs don’t make a right. Just because the government don’t always do it doesn’t mean PGMOL shouldn’t.

With everything becoming more Americanised and players now getting interviewed at half time and when they’ve been subbed, I don’t think it’s a stretch to release a bit of audio.

 

[GraemeS]

Out of interest, and I'm not trying to start an argument for the sake of it, but what difference would it make?
Either way, it's a mistake in my opinion, but whether that mistake is a result of him failing to spot the handball or failing to realise that the handball denied an OGSO, it's a mistake. What are Joe Public expecting to gain by hearing the details of the mistake immediately?

If, for example, Man United's management team made a tactical decision that ultimately backfired and cost them a point or whatever, would the general public expect to be able to publicly hear the discussions that resulted in that tactical decision?

That's a very fair question, and apologies for the lengthy post it's going to trigger!

I think if you go back to my first post, you'll see that my main concern from the start has been the disconnect between what seems to have happened and what we're being told happened. Some people like to point out I'm a Liverpool fan like they've come up with some clever insight, but I think (assuming you accept my hypothesis) any ref should be unhappy with the possibility that those at the top of our profession just instinctively lie the moment anything goes remotely wrong.

I don't necessarily want to hear the audio just because I want to know the mistake - I want to hear it because my sense is that within 45 minutes of the season starting, PGMOL are trying to hide mistakes. In a way that should be unacceptable to everyone on here.

I do also think there is a difference between a referee making an error in judgement, and a VAR failing to even realise they need to look at an incident. The former is just a thing referees have always done, the latter is a obvious problem with taking good on-field refs and asking them to do an almost completely unrelated job. To borrow your analogy, it's the difference between Amorim making a poor tactical decision and him forgetting to check that he's named 11 starters. One is a judgement call, the other is a basic competency.

But while that's a long-standing concern I have, it a) is still less of an issue than PGMOL defaulting to trying to cover-up mistakes and b) still isn't actually me fulfilling the straw man of being a bitter Liverpool fan moaning about decisions that certain users seem determined to cast me as.

 

[RustyRef]

That's a very fair question, and apologies for the lengthy post it's going to trigger!

I think if you go back to my first post, you'll see that my main concern from the start has been the disconnect between what seems to have happened and what we're being told happened. Some people like to point out I'm a Liverpool fan like they've come up with some clever insight, but I think (assuming you accept my hypothesis) any ref should be unhappy with the possibility that those at the top of our profession just instinctively lie the moment anything goes remotely wrong.

I don't necessarily want to hear the audio just because I want to know the mistake - I want to hear it because my sense is that within 45 minutes of the season starting, PGMOL are trying to hide mistakes. In a way that should be unacceptable to everyone on here.

I do also think there is a difference between a referee making an error in judgement, and a VAR failing to even realise they need to look at an incident. The former is just a thing referees have always done, the latter is a obvious problem with taking good on-field refs and asking them to do an almost completely unrelated job. To borrow your analogy, it's the difference between Amorim making a poor tactical decision and him forgetting to check that he's named 11 starters. One is a judgement call, the other is a basic competency.

But while that's a long-standing concern I have, it a) is still less of an issue than PGMOL defaulting to trying to cover-up mistakes and b) still isn't actually me fulfilling the straw man of being a bitter Liverpool fan moaning about decisions that certain users seem determined to cast me as.

Oh come on, let's be honest, you want to hear it because you are a Liverpool fan and you believe your team got sawn off.

In fairness I think you have valid points that the whole situation was a bit messy, it looks like VAR might have completed the review too quickly. But that doesn't mean there's a cover up or conspiracy theory, rather it is just human error.

 

[es1]

Oh come on, let's be honest, you want to hear it because you are a Liverpool fan and you believe your team got sawn off.

In fairness I think you have valid points that the whole situation was a bit messy, it looks like VAR might have completed the review too quickly. But that doesn't mean there's a cover up or conspiracy theory, rather it is just human error.

I want to hear it, I'm not a Liverpool fan

 

[GraemeS]

Oh come on, let's be honest, you want to hear it because you are a Liverpool fan and you believe your team got sawn off.

In fairness I think you have valid points that the whole situation was a bit messy, it looks like VAR might have completed the review too quickly. But that doesn't mean there's a cover up or conspiracy theory, rather it is just human error.

I have half a dozen other people in this thread agreeing with me and engaging in civil discussion.

And then I have you raising the temperature with posts like this.

I am not the problem here.

If you were not a mod, you would have been messaged by a mod and told to back off already. I'm doing my best to avoid being baited by you, and I'd appreciate it if you took your own advice.

 

[Runner Ref]

In fairness I think you have valid points that the whole situation was a bit messy, it looks like VAR might have completed the review too quickly. But that doesn't mean there's a cover up or conspiracy theory, rather it is just human error.

But we should be given access to see if this is the case. I don’t believe in corruption or conspiracy theories. But I can’t accept error on such basic things. If they do confirm a human error in that MO didn’t check the footage enough, that’s not far off being as bad as the Darren England incident.

As you like to say, VAR is there to clear up C&O errors (whatever those are). But the officials don’t seem to be able to clear up their own C&O errors when they are reviewing C&O errors

 

[one]

Me thinks this thread has run its course.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Me thinks this thread has run its course.

. . . several days ago

 

[Runner Ref]

. . . several days ago

I apologise. Completely forgot we must all agree with 3 or 4 peoples opinions. Opinions that are normally kissing the backside of PGMOL and co

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

I apologise. Completely forgot we must all agree with 3 or 4 peoples opinions. Opinions that are normally kissing the backside of PGMOL and co

For the last few days, nothing worthwhile has come out of this thread, just members having a go at each other, the style they regularly adopt.
I, and I guess others, don't see the point of the various arguments put forward, which is why I, and I guess others, didn't bother to contribute.
The referee and VAR made decisions on the day, not everyone agrees with them, which is fine, then this thread like others recently degenerated over a few days.
Pointless.

 

[Runner Ref]

For the last few days, nothing worthwhile has come out of this thread, just members having a go at each other, the style they regularly adopt.
I, and I guess others, don't see the point of the various arguments put forward, which is why I, and I guess others, didn't bother to contribute.
The referee and VAR made decisions on the day, not everyone agrees with them, which is fine, then this thread like others recently degenerated over a few days.
Pointless.

You don’t see the point of people putting various arguments forward? You understand how forums work, right?

Yes the referee and VAR made decisions in the day. We then discuss them.

And yes, we’re allowed to now only disagree with the professionals, but each other also