A&H

Fourth Official Help

Anubis said:
Blank paper, number off, number on, each and every sub

you now have an accurate note of who is n the pitch at the end.

At the end, players can come and go as they wish, toilet if they so desire.

must be regional because I have never used, nor seen said practice. Its certainly not a command you can issue, nor one you can sanction if not adhered to
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As per law 3, competition rules are entitled to (and in my experience, almost always do) ask that only named players and substitutes may be involved, so the "blank paper" solution isn't a panacea. Particularly for a cup final, there are likely to be some eligibility requirements around players having been involved in earlier rounds, so you can't just stand at the half way line and allow any subs without knowing their names.

If named substitutes are a requirement then you would need to check player names when they are to be substituted on, and if return subs are allowed then you would need a list of not just the substitutes, but also the names of any starting player that have come off. Blank piece of paper with a bunch of numbers written on is not enough.
 
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GraemeS said:
As per law 3, competition rules are entitled to (and in my experience, almost always do) ask that only named players and substitutes may be involved, so the "blank paper" solution isn't a panacea. Particularly for a cup final, there are likely to be some eligibility requirements around players having been involved in earlier rounds, so you can't just stand at the half way line and allow any subs without knowing their names.

If named substitutes are a requirement then you would need to check player names when they are to be substituted on, and if return subs are allowed then you would need a list of not just the substitutes, but also the names of any starting player that have come off. Blank piece of paper with a bunch of numbers written on is not enough.
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Named substitutes are ALWAYS a requirement - its in the LOTG - unlike you Graeme! ;)
 
PinnerPaul said:
Named substitutes are ALWAYS a requirement - its in the LOTG - unlike you Graeme! ;)
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Oh come on, I even checked because I thought it was required in law, then changed my answer to be incorrect having read it! If that doesn't demonstrate unclear law writing, I don't know what does!

But I see what confused me: Law 3.1 starts with "If the competition rules state that all players and substitutes must be named before kick off...", so I took the "if" to mean it was down to competition laws. But actually, that's specifically about when the match starts and not everyone has arrived - and as you quite rightly say, 3.3 is clear this isn't optional.
 
GraemeS said:
Oh come on, I even checked because I thought it was required in law, then changed my answer to be incorrect having read it! If that doesn't demonstrate unclear law writing, I don't know what does!

But I see what confused me: Law 3.1 starts with "If the competition rules state that all players and substitutes must be named before kick off...", so I took the "if" to mean it was down to competition laws. But actually, that's specifically about when the match starts and not everyone has arrived - and as you quite rightly say, 3.3 is clear this isn't optional.
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Well to make you feel better I didn't realise that 3.1 said that, so no smug emoji from me! :p
 
Do have a question for all.

Lucky enough to have 3 games coming up with 4ths - all finals (Boys 13s, Girls 14s and Boys 18s) - would you bother getting senior AR to come down the line and 'help' with sub procedure - all roll on, roll offs, so thinking 4th could do that on their own - good/bad practice?

Thanks
 
PinnerPaul said:
Do have a question for all.

Lucky enough to have 3 games coming up with 4ths - all finals (Boys 13s, Girls 14s and Boys 18s) - would you bother getting senior AR to come down the line and 'help' with sub procedure - all roll on, roll offs, so thinking 4th could do that on their own - good/bad practice?

Thanks
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FA guidance is for the AR to only be involved if more than one substitution made at any one time, otherwise leave it to the 4th official.
Enjoy the games👍
 
PinnerPaul said:
Do have a question for all.

Lucky enough to have 3 games coming up with 4ths - all finals (Boys 13s, Girls 14s and Boys 18s) - would you bother getting senior AR to come down the line and 'help' with sub procedure - all roll on, roll offs, so thinking 4th could do that on their own - good/bad practice?

Thanks
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Nah leave it all to the 4th unless they're making multiple at same time.
 
PinnerPaul said:
Do have a question for all.

Lucky enough to have 3 games coming up with 4ths - all finals (Boys 13s, Girls 14s and Boys 18s) - would you bother getting senior AR to come down the line and 'help' with sub procedure - all roll on, roll offs, so thinking 4th could do that on their own - good/bad practice?

Thanks
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In my experience, what @ChasObserverRefDeveloper said is best practice. However, if you are within a reasonable distance (I'd say within ten / twenty yards), a little help is appreciated.

This is probably especially so in the circumstances you describe (U13-U18) as the fourth will quite probably have their hands full. I do not regularly work with a 4th, only on finals etc. However, pretty much every time I have, they have got themselves into a pickle trying to work the board, note down the player off, on, time, as well as managing the substitution (preventing substitute entering before substituted player leaves etc).

I wouldn't advocate running down from the corner flag but having a chat pre game and just saying, "I'll manage the substitution and do the kit check and you record the information and do the board (if I am within a reasonable distance)" seems to tidy everything up.
 
Joe Harrison said:
In my experience, what @ChasObserverRefDeveloper said is best practice. However, if you are within a reasonable distance (I'd say within ten / twenty yards), a little help is appreciated.

This is probably especially so in the circumstances you describe (U13-U18) as the fourth will quite probably have their hands full. I do not regularly work with a 4th, only on finals etc. However, pretty much every time I have, they have got themselves into a pickle trying to work the board, note down the player off, on, time, as well as managing the substitution (preventing substitute entering before substituted player leaves etc).

I wouldn't advocate running down from the corner flag but having a chat pre game and just saying, "I'll manage the substitution and do the kit check and you record the information and do the board (if I am within a reasonable distance)" seems to tidy everything up.
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This shouldn't be where you are at the time of the sub or when play was stopped before substitution. It is where you should be when play restarts. For example for corners or goal kicks, just go and position yourself for the restart and let the 4O do the deed. But if the restart is a throw in around half way and you know you are going to be in the vicinity for restart, then sure get there and lend hand, or should I say lend a voice. For a single sub, I would limit it to some verbal instructions to help.
 
Quarryref said:
Making sure you have spare balls to hand is a good tip.
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The fourth official at a cup final I was on the line for had to run around the stadium picking up the spare balls. We didn't have ball boys... lol.

Granted it was a youth game, so it didn't really have much impact, but it's something to consider talking to any 4th official about. Do you prioritise staying in the tech area, or do you let them go get the ball back. (I'm going with the former.)
 
ASM said:
Retrieving the ball isn’t a duty of the 4th Official so no chance should they be doing it
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I agree, just what happened on that day. (There were no instructions given to any of us on that day, take that as you will.)
 
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RobOda said:
The fourth official at a cup final I was on the line for had to run around the stadium picking up the spare balls. We didn't have ball boys... lol.

Granted it was a youth game, so it didn't really have much impact, but it's something to consider talking to any 4th official about. Do you prioritise staying in the tech area, or do you let them go get the ball back. (I'm going with the former.)
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Not a chance. I might well tell the home team to go and get them if we were running short of balls, but certainly not doing it myself.
 
Ben448844 said:
It's an u12 game and it's just an honorary appointment. I'd have no issue with him collecting the balls
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So the off the ball punch is missed and the one guy who would have seen it is knee deep in a peat bog?

Why would the ar not go mid match to get the ball? Because his role is to be focussed on the game......ditto the 4th, anything else brings a disrespect to the honour of the role

Maybe if the kit man handed the 4th the training gear the 4th could iron it mid match also
 
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Ben448844 said:
It's an u12 game and it's just an honorary appointment. I'd have no issue with him collecting the balls
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As a fourth official you are there to do a specific job, running off and acting as ball boy is not part of that and actually is disrespectful to the teams involved where playing a game with a team of 4 officials, versus at very best having a referee only (and often a parent doing the game) is a really big deal.
 
Justylove said:
As a fourth official you are there to do a specific job, running off and acting as ball boy is not part of that and actually is disrespectful to the teams involved where playing a game with a team of 4 officials, versus at very best having a referee only (and often a parent doing the game) is a really big deal.
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I guess running the water bottles and delivering the orange and apple slices at half time is out of the question then 😉
 
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