A&H

QPR v WBA

exactly, if your pitch is safe ( apart from), then its unsafe.


much ado about nothing here and lots of crystal balls.


never once have I heard of " pitch surroundings' being a consideration for assessing a sanction, in this country, oversees, working with current uefa observers, any coaching, match commanders, uefa delegates, nothing.
Cloest has been just general awareness of say, notorious fan sections, away fans etc

if 30 years of experience of all types of ground witn all levels of officials at all standards of football has never brought this consideration up, I pour scourn on internet randoms deciding otherwise.
There IS an argument for no card, yellow or red, but dismissing fellow qualified referees as 'internet randoms' because they don't agree with your interpretation is a bit much. Plenty of other places I can go to for insults just because someone doesn't agree with me or anyone else.

As I say, I have only seen it live, once and I thought yellow.

From the first 11 responses on here it was 8 for red, 3 for yellow and interestingly, NONE for the actual decision which was no foul.

For balance, as I've said, QPR players and management not overly excited by it, so fk and no card or fk and yellow probably 'correct', but as we know in this type of situation there is no 'correct', so random insults not really necessary I don't think.
 
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There IS an argument for no card, yellow or red, but dismissing fellow qualified referees as 'internet randoms' because they don't agree with your interpretation is a bit much. Plenty of other places I can go to for insults just because someone doesn't agree with me or anyone else.

As I say, I have only seen it live, once and I thought yellow.

From the first 11 responses on here it was 8 for red, 3 for yellow and interestingly, NONE for the actual decision which was no foul.

For balance, as I've said, QPR players and management not overly excited by it, so fk and no card or fk and yellow probably 'correct', but as we know in this type of situation there is no 'correct', so random insults not really necessary I don't think.

Given the choice of guys currently sitting on the uefa referee committee and guys currently uefa delegates,
or
Folk posting on this ( very useful and generally constructive site),

which would you use as your guide?



am not really posting re the incident in question, thinking bigger picture.
 
That's not the point, of course you can disagree with those on here, its labelling them 'internet randoms' I am objecting to.

Your overall point doesn't really hold water either - Simon Hooper clearly more experienced at a higher level than any on here, but no one is saying he hasn't made a mistake by not even awarding a fk.

We all make mistakes - the 'best' players and the 'best' referees.
 
That's not the point, of course you can disagree with those on here, its labelling them 'internet randoms' I am objecting to.

Your overall point doesn't really hold water either - Simon Hooper clearly more experienced at a higher level than any on here, but no one is saying he hasn't made a mistake by not even awarding a fk.

We all make mistakes - the 'best' players and the 'best' referees.

folk online who dont know each other other than by internet postings

internet randoms.


was not meaning be offensive, just factual
 
After viewing and before reading any comments, I thought at least a yellow but thought I might be wrong and red could be possible. Just not sure if I would have given the red. Just don't know.

What I do know, rightly or wrongly, is that I would take into consideration the surroundings. Charging someone into open space is quite different than barging them into an object or a person, whether that be a surrounding fence, goalpost, a group of spectators or the players own team officials/substitutes.
Its quite simple - endangering the safety of an opponent - it is much more dangerous to charge an opponent when they could impact a fence or wall than it would be if the same charge was in the middle of the pitch.
But hey, I'm just an internet random.;)
 
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My view is that those obstacles are there from minute 1 through to minute 90.

If a player isn’t intelligent enough or doesn’t have the awareness to recognise the potential danger when pushing, shoving or any other action near to goalpost, advertising board or other permanent fixture, then that is nobodies fault but their own.

Ignorance of your surroundings doesn’t constitute a defence or excuse in my opinion.

We have a player needing treatment for a gash on his head that would not have happened without the shove.
 
You have to ask why they are doing it. Why forcefully push a player when the ball is going out of play? There is only one reason they would do it, and that is to hurt an opponent, or to "leave a mark" as it is sometimes described. If they try to stop it going out of play with a tackle and that sends the opponent into the hoardings then that is a very different kettle of fish, that's a genuine footballing action. Deliberately barging someone in the back, knowing they will be at serious risk of injury, is clearly endangering their safety.

They can't fix the grounds by having a bigger run off as grounds like QPR and Luton are hemmed in by housing, can't be extended, and the pitches are probably close to being the minimum size allowed for that level of football. I've lined at both and it does almost feel as though you are in the crowd. But it isn't just the smaller grounds, once of the most dangerous is Old Trafford because of the steep run off they have there from the touchline to the barriers. You barge someone by the touchline there and they are going to go hurtling down that slope, seen it happen many times.

And it isn't just the barriers. I can remember an England game when a defender and attacker were chasing a ball as the keeper came out to collect it. The defender got his body between the keeper and ball, the attacker forcefully shoved him in the back causing him to collide heavily with the keeper and suffer a serious injury. Think it was Gary Cahill from memory, and there was pretty much universal agreement that it should have been a red card. As I said, actions have consequences.
 
You have to ask why they are doing it. Why forcefully push a player when the ball is going out of play? There is only one reason they would do it, and that is to hurt an opponent, or to "leave a mark" as it is sometimes described. If they try to stop it going out of play with a tackle and that sends the opponent into the hoardings then that is a very different kettle of fish, that's a genuine footballing action. Deliberately barging someone in the back, knowing they will be at serious risk of injury, is clearly endangering their safety.

They can't fix the grounds by having a bigger run off as grounds like QPR and Luton are hemmed in by housing, can't be extended, and the pitches are probably close to being the minimum size allowed for that level of football. I've lined at both and it does almost feel as though you are in the crowd. But it isn't just the smaller grounds, once of the most dangerous is Old Trafford because of the steep run off they have there from the touchline to the barriers. You barge someone by the touchline there and they are going to go hurtling down that slope, seen it happen many times.

And it isn't just the barriers. I can remember an England game when a defender and attacker were chasing a ball as the keeper came out to collect it. The defender got his body between the keeper and ball, the attacker forcefully shoved him in the back causing him to collide heavily with the keeper and suffer a serious injury. Think it was Gary Cahill from memory, and there was pretty much universal agreement that it should have been a red card. As I said, actions have consequences.
Rusty:

I totally agree with what you are saying here but I have seen this circumstance at least 3 times at my team and the referee has never shown a card.

I also believe the outcome makes a difference to your reaction as a referee. If a "pushed" player comes out with a cut head, for instance, then that will make you react more strongly as a referee.

But as i said in league one it has not made one bit of difference.
 
I've seen this exact scenario in league one many times and a card is never shown.
I have seen plays cautioned when opponent was sent into boards that I thought would not have been otherwise cautioned. Alas, I cannot give a specific example. (For me the amount of force from behind with no chance at any play on the ball warrants a caution. At the levels I do, I would caution without the barrier at all.)
 
the most dangerous is Old Trafford because of the steep run off they have there from the touchline to the barriers. You barge someone by the touchline there and they are going to go hurtling down that slope, seen it happen many times.
And how many times have you seen a player sent off for it?
And it isn't just the barriers. I can remember an England game when a defender and attacker were chasing a ball as the keeper came out to collect it. The defender got his body between the keeper and ball, the attacker forcefully shoved him in the back causing him to collide heavily with the keeper and suffer a serious injury. Think it was Gary Cahill from memory, and there was pretty much universal agreement that it should have been a red card. As I said, actions have consequences.
Similar incident happened here not too long back where a player pushed a Player into the GK. The GK was injured and the game was abandoned as a result of the injury.
The player was sent off by the referee. The player appealed with video and the county FA upheld the appeal.
 
And how many times have you seen a player sent off for it?

Similar incident happened here not too long back where a player pushed a Player into the GK. The GK was injured and the game was abandoned as a result of the injury.
The player was sent off by the referee. The player appealed with video and the county FA upheld the appeal.
Never, but that doesn't mean it is right. You can guarantee that will change though if someone picks up a very serious injury as a result of such an action.

I pay little weight to appeal hearing decisions. Often there is no one on the panel with any knowledge of the laws, let alone qualifications, and therefore the outcomes are at best random. I was at one representing a league where one of the elderly panel members spent more time asleep than he was awake, and when I challenged this the chairman replied with "yes, he always does that".
 
Never, but that doesn't mean it is right. You can guarantee that will change though if someone picks up a very serious injury as a result of such an action.

I pay little weight to appeal hearing decisions. Often there is no one on the panel with any knowledge of the laws, let alone qualifications, and therefore the outcomes are at best random. I was at one representing a league where one of the elderly panel members spent more time asleep than he was awake, and when I challenged this the chairman replied with "yes, he always does that".
It at least shows its not an expected decision. I imagine if the powers that be wanted these incidents to be punished severely then they could easily make their refs aware. As you say it does happen a few times a season.

Take your point on some appeal panels, however, ours is pretty good and I am certain these have an opinion of an active EFL referee and (not this one) an active PL AR as part of the referee working group.
 
Take that correct red card for that horrendous straight leg tackle in that mad clip posted about a fortnight ago
Endangers safety. Not, wait see the degree of injury before deciding
The guy being wiped out in the clip, bounced up right as rain, Had we assessed, oh, he aint hurt, cant be a red, we would of course been so wrong

So, by the logic applied to that, we dont issue our coloured card based on outcome.

someone throwing someone face against the upright, red

someone having a routine extra bit of force on a routine show of agression, does not escalate to red because the player he shoved then lost his footing, spun a polka, did the splits, then landed like a burst couch against a fence.

its still just the original push/tackle
 
Take that correct red card for that horrendous straight leg tackle in that mad clip posted about a fortnight ago
Endangers safety. Not, wait see the degree of injury before deciding
The guy being wiped out in the clip, bounced up right as rain, Had we assessed, oh, he aint hurt, cant be a red, we would of course been so wrong
Have you even watched the clip? He needed treatment for 5 minutes and several stitches, he certainly didn't "bounce up right as rain". All because someone deliberately and forcefully pushed him into the hoardings.
 
Have you even watched the clip? He needed treatment for 5 minutes and several stitches, he certainly didn't "bounce up right as rain". All because someone deliberately and forcefully pushed him into the hoardings.

No, my posts are bigger picture, not simply based on one incident,

The same principle applies tho, you cant make your call based on the aftermath.

we dont downgrade a sfp to yellow because the opponent is unhurt

follows suit we dont upgrade, because someine was hurt from a non red offence
 
I think that you have to think of intent and whether it endangers the opponent. I think that this does tick the box in my opinion. I do also agree that these advertising boards are so dangerous.

I am erring to RC here.
 
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