Wolves vs Arsenal

[Ryanj91]

My actual point has been lost.

Dissent is manageable. Far worse dissent than we see at PL goes unpunished at all levels of the game. These scenarios are manageable. And that is down to individual, or employers discretions /tolerances.

The 2 offences here are succeeded with the player IS cautioned.

I do agree in principle with your point though but you are insinuating that Michael Oliver couldn't wait to do the three card trick which in turn carries with it an undertone of him not being above baord with his decisions which is basically calling him a cheat (whether intentionally or not).

You sound just like a player (you may very well still play). Twice I have had to give red cards for really horrendous challenges this season and both times, yes I have been quick with the Red card the players words "you couldn't wait to get the red card out".

Dissent is a cautionable offence? Doesn't matter how 'managable it is'. When you see Premier League players shouting and swearing in the face of a referee go unpunished it is infuriating. Then what happens in Sunday league? Refs are abused and assaulted.

I haven't called him a cheat, he did the right thing. I think I've made that clear three times now.

 

[Anubis]

Dissent is a cautionable offence? Doesn't matter how 'managable it is'. When you see Premier League players shouting and swearing in the face of a referee go unpunished it is infuriating. Then what happens in Sunday league? Refs are abused and assaulted.

I haven't called him a cheat, he did the right thing. I think I've made that clear three times now.

you have now answered your own issue

Big Dave, who has been banned three times for threatening the referee in the past, does not turn up under a false name, stinking of booze and headbutt anyone in the professional game.


prob the only thing comparable to epl in our game, the shape of the ball used.

 

[RustyRef]

But the refs claim they don't hear the dissent as the crowd is so loud, so its possible the player didn't hear him. As per my point above how at our level all and sundry know.
I also think that at the point the arsenal player pushed him, the wolves crowd would have erupted even louder. I'm definitely in the martinelli just needs to know he is getting booked, even if he ca t point to exactly which law he is being booked under.

Oh they hear it, that's just a line trotted out because they know that at that level of the game no one wants dissent cautions unless it is really, really obvious. If / when you get to L3 you will find your coach all over you if you are giving out dissent cautions, basically because it will stop you progressing. If we can hear it sat in the crowd, or watching on TV, they can certainly hear it in the middle. I've never done a top level game but I have lined in a packed stadium with 8000 very noisy fans in and I could hear most things. In some cases there might obviously be a language barrier, but Martinelli has been at Arsenal for nearly three years so I suspect his English is near perfect.

And in fairness I've been guilty of trotting out the same line myself in the past.

 

[RustyRef]

Dissent is a cautionable offence? Doesn't matter how 'managable it is'. When you see Premier League players shouting and swearing in the face of a referee go unpunished it is infuriating. Then what happens in Sunday league? Refs are abused and assaulted.

I haven't called him a cheat, he did the right thing. I think I've made that clear three times now.

See my post #43, rightly or wrongly once you get to L3 if you are throwing around cautions for dissent you have zero chance of progression and in all likelihood will be going the opposite direction.

 

[Ryanj91]

See my post #43, rightly or wrongly once you get to L3 if you are throwing around cautions for dissent you have zero chance of progression and in all likelihood will be going the opposite direction.

Its a shame that football is literally the only sport where this is 'acceptable' /rules are bent just because you are a 'professional'.

 

[socal lurker]

Its a shame that football is literally the only sport where this is 'acceptable' /rules are bent just because you are a 'professional'.

I don't think that is a remotely true statement. Professional sports are a business first and foremost. That is what drives a lot of the expectations on how referees enforce the rules.

 

[Anubis]

Wayne Rooney, would last 5 mins in grass roots with us reffing
We, would last 5 mins in the epl with Wayne Rooney playing


hopefully that basic guide sums up officiating at elite level

 

[RustyRef]

Its a shame that football is literally the only sport where this is 'acceptable' /rules are bent just because you are a 'professional'.

At Premier League level it is all about supporters and TV. Take the average game at old Trafford, the punters in the ground will have paid close to £3 million to get in. Worldwide TV broadcasters will have paid many times more than that to cover it. None of those want to see "soft" cautions for dissent, and even worse players picking up second yellows as a result.

No other sport, certainly not in the UK, has that level of financial commitment involved, and that is why there is huge pressure on match officials to keep it 11 vs 11. Some things can't be managed, but dissent can and nothing will change whilever the broadcasters effectively run the game.

 

[Anubis]

What happens if a circus has its main acts taken away?

nobody watches the circus

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Its a shame that football is literally the only sport where this is 'acceptable' /rules are bent just because you are a 'professional'.

Plus cricket, where a manageable amount of sledging is allowed, rugby where minor dissent is ignored, etc., etc.
This is true in football and other sports at all levels, from local park to internationals, and a certain level of dissent is accepted as manageable by every football referee at every level.
If you caution every knee-jerk "No way", every "Are you sure, ref?", every "I got the ball" as dissent, most games would be over a lot quicker than 90 minutes.

 

[RefIADad]

Back to the original topic.

Brilliant refereeing by Michael Oliver. Absolutely two separate cautions, and he clearly demonstrated it. That was a clinic as far as I’m concerned.

 

[cwyeary]

Plus cricket, where a manageable amount of sledging is allowed, rugby where minor dissent is ignored, etc.,

All season in the NFL taunting was a point of emphasis. Had penalties left and right all season. Until the end of a massive playoff game where the "wave" by Tyrek Hill was rightly ignored and not penalized. It's not just football.

 

[Will_A]

Dissent is a cautionable offence? Doesn't matter how 'managable it is'. When you see Premier League players shouting and swearing in the face of a referee go unpunished it is infuriating. Then what happens in Sunday league? Refs are abused and assaulted.

I haven't called him a cheat, he did the right thing. I think I've made that clear three times now.

Law defines dissent as “publicly disagreeing with the referees decision”

Seeing as you’re so certain that all dissent MUST be cautioned, are you cautioning every player that disagrees with your decisions?

“Ref, that’s never a foul!”
Are you managing that or cautioning?

 

[one]

Isn't it the very definition of hypocrisy by having respect campaigns but expecting no action against disrespect on the very game that has the most viewers?

I don't buy the business, money and keeping 11 argument. It is only a short term impact. Caution or send off appropriately for a sustained period of time and you'll find that the level of dissent and disrespect drops and you don't have to ignore abuse to keep players on the field. In the vast majority of times, players do it because they know they can get away with it.

 

[Trip]

Law defines dissent as “publicly disagreeing with the referees decision”

Seeing as you’re so certain that all dissent MUST be cautioned, are you cautioning every player that disagrees with your decisions?

“Ref, that’s never a foul!”
Are you managing that or cautioning?

He's not saying every tiny act of dissent must be cautioned, he's saying that acts of very obvious spittle-in-your-face raging in the premier league go unpunished.

I understand why top refs are told not to caution for dissent. It doesn't mean I like it.

 

[Will_A]

He's not saying every tiny act of dissent must be cautioned, he's saying that acts of very obvious spittle-in-your-face raging in the premier league go unpunished.

I understand why top refs are told not to caution for dissent. It doesn't mean I like it.

He literally says the words:

“Dissent is a cautionable offence? Doesn't matter how 'manageable’ it is”

Of course I get the point that EPL levels of dissent far exceed anything we expect or tolerate at grassroots level but to state all dissent is cautionable is ludicrous.

100% of referees manages varying levels of dissent dependant on their tolerance levels.

If we’re going to quote law and be pedantic about it all then surely what we witness at EPL level would fall into OFFINABUS and result in god knows how many reds each week.

 

[Trip]

He literally says the words:

“Dissent is a cautionable offence? Doesn't matter how 'manageable’ it is”

And he's right, it is. He doesn't say he wants to see every tiny moan cautioned. He goes on to say:

"When you see Premier League players shouting and swearing in the face of a referee go unpunished it is infuriating."

It's absolutely clear that what Ryan doesn't like is blatant, serious dissent going unpunished. He doesn't say or imply that he is "certain that all dissent MUST be cautioned".

 

[Redster]

He literally says the words:

“Dissent is a cautionable offence? Doesn't matter how 'manageable’ it is”

Small point...
He didn't literally say it, he literally typed it.

On another point, he seems to me to have really been making a point about YC fouls and then referees being excoriated by players immediately afterwards - we've all seen it ignored. It is a matter of routine.

That being said, the OP is most obviously the correct decision and it should not be criticised just because the attitude to dissent in the PL is bordering on encouragement.

 

[Big Cat]

@Anubis It would take a 'leap of faith' to remove the circus
I agree with @one that it's merely an assumption that the game needs misconduct to remain commercially prosperous. It's entirely possible that if the 'circus masters' do their job properly, the show could be better. Ball 'in play' for longer, better football etc.
Sadly, I doubt we'll ever find out

One thing's for sure, despite what @RustyRef indicates about C2's preventing progress at higher levels, that simply wouldn't stop me from acting upon dissent when necessary, albeit with somewhat higher tolerance. My game is more important than my progress. That's part of the problem, I doubt there are many R's there with the wherewithal to see things this way. So we end up with all Refs doing things badly according to someone else's agenda

 

[Anubis]

@Anubis It would take a 'leap of faith' to remove the circus
I agree with @one that it's merely an assumption that the game needs misconduct to remain commercially prosperous. It's entirely possible that if the 'circus masters' do their job properly, the show could be better. Ball 'in play' for longer, better football etc.
Sadly, I doubt we'll ever find out

One thing's for sure, despite what @RustyRef indicates about C2's preventing progress at higher levels, that simply wouldn't stop me from acting upon dissent when necessary, albeit with somewhat higher tolerance. My game is more important than my progress. That's part of the problem, I doubt there are many R's there with the wherewithal to see things this way. So we end up with all Refs doing things badly according to someone else's agenda

Not having the requirement to impress anybody today, my refereeing will match the game in hand
Free flowing no issues, I wont go finding any
Stuffy niggly vocal, am putting throw ins to the blade of grass

of course am not performing to millions worldwide or for millions of pound prizemoney

on the flipside, the satisfaction and enjoyment level is through the roof, and, as a hobby, I think thats Utopia