Wolves vs Arsenal
- Thread starter bester
- Start date
Absolutely the correct decision. Well done MO.
The reaction to the decision sums up why we have so many issues. Refs get (rightly) destroyed for not enforcing the LotG correctly, then get destroyed for doing the job properly. Just this morning we've had Mark Halsey accusing Oliver of "going looking for trouble" and Arteta demanding a meeting with the PGMOL as though there's some kind of massive conspiracy (maybe try telling your players to stop being morons instead
).
The reaction to the decision sums up why we have so many issues. Refs get (rightly) destroyed for not enforcing the LotG correctly, then get destroyed for doing the job properly. Just this morning we've had Mark Halsey accusing Oliver of "going looking for trouble" and Arteta demanding a meeting with the PGMOL as though there's some kind of massive conspiracy (maybe try telling your players to stop being morons instead
).
Of all the pundits out there (and let's face it, I defend quite a few of them because some of them are worth listening to), it's debatable whether any of them can churn out as much BS as Rio Ferdinand
Gotta say, overall, I'm surprised by the backlash from pundits against MO on this occasion. I'd sternly disagree with any of them criticising the Ref
Impeding the thrower is a very clear act of USB and the second yellow for SPA is remarkably obvious. It's entirely deserved for petulance and it's undeniably clear that two yellow card offences occurred, regardless of whether it's during one phase of play
The only debate is about the nuances of the book and what the exact offence was at the point of the throw-in. On the subject of which, I think we as Referees pay too much attention to exact wording in the book, when the wording itself if often unclear and contradictory, especially when something unusual happens in a game. In this case, if I was observing, I'd find any words whatsoever in the book to support the Ref in his actions
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That’s painful viewing and unfortunately it’s what’s fans and grassroots players take in and churn out as their own opinion. It’s fantastic refereeing but apparently it’s always on the referee to ‘apply common sense’ rather than the players
Anubis
RefChat Addict
100%, the second one does not merit a mention,ts picture book spa
the first, and am one who is guilty of stretching petty things sometimes to keep players on, comes under the unwriten offence of, being an @rse, and absolutely on this rare occasion am delighted to find a crime to match the punishment
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
I think smart refereeing is to stop the game as soon as there is the push on the thrower. It's such a weird thing to happen that there's bound to be some fallout - especially in grassroots it's the kind of thing that gets benches involved or invites afters.
When the attacker gets the ball it's 2 on 4 and he's in his own half. After a trifling foul it's an OK advantage but - with the benefit of hindsight - it's not a great advantage yellow.
There is a lot to learn here for grassroots referees. Martinelli does not expect that he will receive a caution for the first "challenge". Oliver has no way to communicate that to the player - or any of the players. Some will say he doesn't have to - but we know at grassroots that if you are going to give an advantage on a yellow card you have to prepared that you will have to fight for match control. It's best if you can tell the player that a yellow is coming at the next stoppage. And if you keep reminding the player and others while the ball stays in play (took 5 mins last time for me).
So, OK, love MO, respect his decision. But... smart refereeing is to avoid this.
When the attacker gets the ball it's 2 on 4 and he's in his own half. After a trifling foul it's an OK advantage but - with the benefit of hindsight - it's not a great advantage yellow.
There is a lot to learn here for grassroots referees. Martinelli does not expect that he will receive a caution for the first "challenge". Oliver has no way to communicate that to the player - or any of the players. Some will say he doesn't have to - but we know at grassroots that if you are going to give an advantage on a yellow card you have to prepared that you will have to fight for match control. It's best if you can tell the player that a yellow is coming at the next stoppage. And if you keep reminding the player and others while the ball stays in play (took 5 mins last time for me).
So, OK, love MO, respect his decision. But... smart refereeing is to avoid this.
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
It certainly isn't reckless, if that's what you mean, but I think it is easy USB. It isn't a push in the course of play, it's an aggressive push just to be aggressive at an opponent. Would I be horrified if a R decided to talk to the player instead of cautioning for that? No. But I think it is easily an earned caution for USB--it's really the unsporting nature of what he did more than being close that is why we would caution.
Semi agree.I think smart refereeing is to stop the game as soon as there is the push on the thrower. It's such a weird thing to happen that there's bound to be some fallout - especially in grassroots it's the kind of thing that gets benches involved or invites afters.
When the attacker gets the ball it's 2 on 4 and he's in his own half. After a trifling foul it's an OK advantage but - with the benefit of hindsight - it's not a great advantage yellow.
There is a lot to learn here for grassroots referees. Martinelli does not expect that he will receive a caution for the first "challenge". Oliver has no way to communicate that to the player - or any of the players. Some will say he doesn't have to - but we know at grassroots that if you are going to give an advantage on a yellow card you have to prepared that you will have to fight for match control. It's best if you can tell the player that a yellow is coming at the next stoppage. And if you keep reminding the player and others while the ball stays in play (took 5 mins last time for me).
So, OK, love MO, respect his decision. But... smart refereeing is to avoid this.
But I also think that this needs to happen here, and more frequently so that it becomes accepted.
I always always always make it very clear a caution has been committed when playing advantage. Of course in my games much easier as I can project my voice much louder than Harold and his faithful companion Barney. Not so easy when you have several tens of thousands do this is where the footballers need to be smart and know the law. He knows the first one is a booking. He knows the 2nd one is. He's banking somehow on being allowed to do it twice and get away with one.
Not today. Well done MO in my opinion. And if it happens in my game. On Sat, a much easier sell now.
An opponent who unfairly distracts or impedes the thrower (including moving
closer than 2 m (2 yds) to the place where the throw-in is to be taken) is
cautioned for unsporting behaviour, and if the throw-in has been taken, an
indirect free kick is awarded.
It's mandatory, for the above statement in law 15. Like I say its 3 offences at the same time and when multiple offences happen at the same time then we punish the most serious in terms of sanction, restart etc..
Of the three, the law 15 offence is the most serious in terms of sanction.
Has the referee followed the rules? Yes.
Going to throw a curve ball here..
I have never seen any referees so eager to send players off for double yellows when the players has hacked someone down, got up and sworn continuously in the face of a referee for 30 seconds and performed all types of dissent. Or even hacked a player down, then pushed and shoved, raised arms to the face etc... Why so eager yesterday?
This is what annoys me. Either do it consistently as a team of referees within the Premier League or don't do it at all.
Now expect a few more this weekend/next weekend as it is fresh.
Going to throw a curve ball here..
I have never seen any referees so eager to send players off for double yellows when the players has hacked someone down, got up and sworn continuously in the face of a referee for 30 seconds and performed all types of dissent. Or even hacked a player down, then pushed and shoved, raised arms to the face etc... Why so eager yesterday?
This is what annoys me. Either do it consistently as a team of referees within the Premier League or don't do it at all.
Now expect a few more this weekend/next weekend as it is fresh.
I often wonder if you are even a referee the way you post about your "colleagues."
This is a very rare occurrence where two mandatory cautions occur in close proximity.
It won't happen again this season.
Dissent, argy bargys, handbags, are manageable events and often the referee's tolerance is the discretion, which, as we all know at the top levels is far far higher than we would accept in our games.
These 2 are not manageable events. They are clear as day, bang on, cautions. I do t see a referee who looks eager, I see a referee who knows he is going to have a job explaining this CORRECT decision. 1) he has to clearly communicate it to tens of thousands, no sorry, millions of people. 2) he then has to deal with the other 30 or so Arsenal contingent who will be wanting to understand it.
Inwardly he might have been laughing at how stupid the player has been and how he just got challenging situations I'm application of law. I'm happy with both versions.
The issue here is the player NOT the referee
One thing to bear in mind is Michael Oliver will have almost certainly said out loud that he will be coming back for the first caution, partly to warn the player and partly so he remembers who it was. Obviously it is easier to remember which EPL player it was than it is at grass roots, but almost all referees do that as they progress and it becomes common nature. Not only does that mean Martinelli should have known what was coming so was a complete clown for making the challenge, it effectively means Oliver had zero chance not to caution the first offence as the Wolves players will have heard him. The second caution was mandatory, so he really had no choice but to issue both and send off.
You have answered the frustration of many referees and fans across the country withn your reply.
Referees in the prem seem to almost use different variations of rules/bench marks to what is written in the rule book.
My opening sentence = yes he has done the right thing. I am in no way debating the decision as it is correct.
My frustration = 2/3 games a weekend this SHOULD happen because of what I mentioned, but it never does because of these 'premier league rules' that you mention.
But the refs claim they don't hear the dissent as the crowd is so loud, so its possible the player didn't hear him. As per my point above how at our level all and sundry know.
I also think that at the point the arsenal player pushed him, the wolves crowd would have erupted even louder. I'm definitely in the martinelli just needs to know he is getting booked, even if he ca t point to exactly which law he is being booked under.
My actual point has been lost.
Dissent is manageable. Far worse dissent than we see at PL goes unpunished at all levels of the game. These scenarios are manageable. And that is down to individual, or employers discretions /tolerances.
The 2 offences here are succeeded with the player IS cautioned.
I do agree in principle with your point though but you are insinuating that Michael Oliver couldn't wait to do the three card trick which in turn carries with it an undertone of him not being above baord with his decisions which is basically calling him a cheat (whether intentionally or not).
You sound just like a player (you may very well still play). Twice I have had to give red cards for really horrendous challenges this season and both times, yes I have been quick with the Red card the players words "you couldn't wait to get the red card out".
Anubis
RefChat Addict
Its important to bear in mind something mentioned on here often
What we see on our tv at the top level, is not, nor does it claim to be
The prem league is a brand, a business, the referees are full time contracted employees with a specific role to play
We dont look at our pub league and see Ronaldo, we equally should not look at the tv and see us
its the same law book, different expectations. When we, if we do, officiate at epl level, we also will act like using different versiins of the rules
until then, we do the best we can based on our ability, knowledge, experience, and, our games demand.