A&H

Week 2 - the return of the big mac

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Entry #11
Before my match I would have ensured that I told both assistants, regardless of previous experience with them what I expect from them and what they can expect of me. My pre match basically will tell them that I know they are qualified referees, and as such, I trust that they are brave enough to make the correct decisions that they feel they are in a credible position to make, during the game although I do add that it is on their say so I made the decision should it be wrong and I've taken their advice having not seen an incident. Also I add that Eye contact should be made when making decisions in and around the penalty area as this is where there is likely to be most problems with regard to fouls.
    • Application of Law - as the referee I have the final say on any decision, however, I have not seen the incident so therefore cannot make the call on my own. As I have noticed my assistant flagging for my attention for a penalty (using an unlawful signal), I would stop play and speak to him. He must have seen an infringement to make him out his flag across his chest (which is not a signal specified in the LOTG, rather he should have been agitating the flag and when eye contact is made with the referee, running to the corner flag).
    • Decision making/accuracy - the assistant would have been almost in line with the incident given that he would be in line with the second to last defender. He would be in a good position therefore, to judge if the incident was in or out the box. I would listen to my assistant, but would be careful of my words and expressions not to undermine him. After he has informed me of his version of events, I would tell him what I seen and explain that I felt the player was further out the box and ask him if he is 100% certain it was in the box. If he is sure, penalty without a doubt, if not I would be ordering a free kick since that is where I believe it happened and he cannot give me a guarantee of the incidents position. The assistant has also said that he wants a red for SFP. I would tell him that if he is certain that the punch was not VC and he is happy to put in a supporting report to that effect then I would be following his decision - we are a team working together to police the game and we cannot see everything at once, he is my extra eyes.
    • Match control - having spoken to my assistant and agreed that it is a PK and a red card I would point to the penalty spot whilst blowing my whistle I would then go to an isolated area, away from the players and call over the offending player. After taking his name and number, I would explain that he is being sent off for his punch and then show the red card. Whilst the player is leaving the field I would adopt my position for the penalty and ensure that my assistant does the same. I would be happy to speak calmly to the captain should he like an explanation but would be cautious of dissent from players and aggravation and misconduct from the bench.
    • Stoppages & technical offences - time should be added for the discussion with assistant and the treatment of the player.
    • Positioning - correct positioning from linesman gives the decision credibility. Possibly the referee is too far off his diagonal and that may be why he had to turn to see the incident. If the referee has been further away from the assistant he would have had more players in his sight and could have seen the source of the shout whilst being able to view the ball and incident.
    • Fitness/work rate - hard to say from the incident but looks like the ref and assistant are keeping up with play. For the remainder of the game ensure that you are in credible positions for decisions and this may mean working harder.
    • Alertness & awareness - good alertness to identify potential infringement in the box due to shout but it was unfortunate it occurred at the same time as a potential game changing decision.
    • Teamwork - ensuring that you trust and have faith in your team is essential. As qualified referees you all know the rules and the assistant should be told by the referee that he is trusted to make decisions, although if the referee has a different opinion and seen the incident they should be prepared to be "waved down" and this should not be taken personally. There is Also the potential that the other assistant seen the incident. Although they would not be credible to have seen an in or out the box decision they may be able to give assurance it was a punch.
    • Communication - if comms available, ensure that the assistant on the other side has nothing to add. If only flags or buzzer, ensure that you haven't missed a flag. Listen to the assistant giving the decision, compare what you seen and make decision based on that. Also, make sure that you inform the player that he has been sent off for the punch.
    • Advantage - unless obvious goal scoring opportunity is available in this situation - No advantage
    • where are the players - mainly all in the box, giving further reason to possibly have changed position to view more players
    • where is the ball - being used in promising attack beside assistant.
    • what will happen next - possible dissent or reckless challenges or SFP from frustration at the decision of penalty, losing goal and possible relegation.
    • what are the possible infringements - from the incident either PK, DFK for the attackers or simulation against the attacker which is possible given the players reaction about his sportsmanship and parentage. Also, YC for simulation or reckless challenge or RC DOGSO (unlikely), SFP or VC.
 
The Referee Store
To the people who talk about the flag signal, it isn't in the LOTG but it is the common signal for a penalty. I use it whenever I am a referee with NAR's and also when I am an AR myself. It is also used on the Barclays premier league because it is a much easier signal to do than the one in the LOTG so when making my decision, that wouldn't even have crossed my mind. :confused:
 
HullRef said:
To the people who talk about the flag signal, it isn't in the LOTG but it is the common signal for a penalty. I use it whenever I am a referee with NAR's and also when I am an AR myself. It is also used on the Barclays premier league because it is a much easier signal to do than the one in the LOTG so when making my decision, that wouldn't even have crossed my mind. :confused:
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However it remains an unauthorised signal and as such should not be used. Accordingly assessors should be marking down for it and any referee who instructs their AR's to use this signal should also be marked accordingly.

Just another example of poor practice being led by the supposed "elite" of our refereeing community.
 
Padfoot said:
However it remains an unauthorised signal and as such should not be used. Accordingly assessors should be marking down for it and any referee who instructs their AR's to use this signal should also be marked accordingly.

Just another example of poor practice being led by the supposed "elite" of our refereeing community.
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I find it hilarious that a guy who in another thread was talking about the 'dinosaurs within the FA' can interpret the LOTG so literally! Either you're for change and personal choice or you're not - make you're mind up!
 
hattersfan said:
I find it hilarious that a guy who in another thread was talking about the 'dinosaurs within the FA' can interpret the LOTG so literally! Either you're for change and personal choice or you're not - make you're mind up!
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The attire that a referee wears does not affect their compliance with the LOTG.......using or instructing people to use unauthorised signals does. There is no way that a referee who instructs his AR's to use this signal, or AR's who use this signal can be compliant with the LOTG......and therefore they should be marked down accordingly in assessments.

You cannot pick and choose which LOTG you are going to referee to.......they are the very foundation stone of what we do. The FA's outdated ideas are not......they don't have any relevance on the actual purpose of a referee's task.....the LOTG do....therefore they are much more immutable than a member associations predilections towards one style of attire or another.

Once you manage to grasp that principle you'll find that my stance is in no way at odds with my feelings on the prehistoric approach of the FA.
 
I have to agree with @Padfoot here. We can't decide to forget rules or regulations set out in the LOTG to suit ourselves, and as such, we therefore can't on the same note make up new things for the LOTG. It is the same with the "walk the dog" signal when signalling that a player is in a tight offside call but kept onside as you are running with him. IMO it is a horrible habit to get into. Up here, we get AR training from FIFA guys and when one guy last year did the flag across chest signal he was tore into, saying it is not an acceptable signal and FIFA want to get rid of it because it draws all attention to the AR and if it turns out it was out the box then the AR loses all credibility. Instead, agitate the flag and make eye contact with the referee and discuss from there. He may have seen something different.
 
I have had lunch with the Training & Development Manager of the PGMOL and we talked about the signal. He was explaining that they were thinking of getting rid of it...getting 'rid of it' implies it is already in place and is therefore completely legitimate. The signal is a directive from the FA not FIFA but should still be listened to. The FIFA laws also state:

'As a general rule, the assistant referee must give no obvious hand signals.
However, in some instances, a discreet hand signal may give valuable support
to the referee. The hand signal should have a clear meaning. The meaning
should have been discussed and agreed upon in the pre-match discussion.'

Whilst this is about hand signals it applied just as much to flagging. It quite clearly shows that as long as its meaning has been outlined before kick off it is correct to use it.

An incredibly ironic post as well from someone who can be quoted as saying 'Thankfully assessments and the such no longer bother me. I referee how I want, when I want.'
 
Pierluigi said:
I have had lunch with the Training & Development Manager of the PGMOL and we talked about the signal. He was explaining that they were thinking of getting rid of it...getting 'rid of it' implies it is already in place and is therefore completely legitimate. The signal is a directive from the FA not FIFA but should still be listened to. The FIFA laws also state:

'As a general rule, the assistant referee must give no obvious hand signals.
However, in some instances, a discreet hand signal may give valuable support
to the referee. The hand signal should have a clear meaning. The meaning
should have been discussed and agreed upon in the pre-match discussion.'

Whilst this is about hand signals it applied just as much to flagging. It quite clearly shows that as long as its meaning has been outlined before kick off it is correct to use it.

An incredibly ironic post as well from someone who can be quoted as saying 'Thankfully assessments and the such no longer bother me. I referee how I want, when I want.'
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How on earth can you take something is so specific regarding hand signals and effectively decide that you know that they actually mean flagging as well?

The clue is in the wording...."DISCREET hand signal"....putting your flag across your nipples is hardly discreet. It immediately focuses all the attention on the AR and leaves them no hiding place if they are wrong.

The PGMOL are a law unto themselves as evidenced every single week of the season when their officials fail to apply to the LOTG when dealing with dissent, OFFINABUS etc etc

I indeed do referee when i want and how i want, but always within the constraints of the LOTG...otherwise what is the point in being there if you are not going to do the job properly?
 
Right, I've had enough.

@Padfoot, if all you're going to do in every single thread on this forum is start an argument, I, along with @Ross, @Reffariiii & @Supermonkey (the moderating team) would much prefer it if you no longer used this forum.

Whilst it is an open forum where everyone is entitled to freedom of speech and their own opinion, it is to the detriment of the site and the rest of the members if you start arguments day, after day, after day.

In addition to the above, you simply cannot shout down another person's opinion because you either don't like it or disagree with it.

In refereeing terms, this is using the stepped approach and your public, final warning.


For now, this thread remains open. Any more utter stupidity from ANYONE and the thread will close. We will also have to decide whether or not this fun and interesting competition, which Super is doing off his own back and in his own time, can continue.
 
Pierluigi said:
@Padfoot you are absolutely shot away!
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So this is perfectly acceptable yet presenting a reasoned thorough argument in support of a position is not?


DanCohen17 said:
Right, I've had enough.

@Padfoot, if all you're going to do in every single thread on this forum is start an argument, I, along with @Ross, @Reffariiii & @Supermonkey (the moderating team) would much prefer it if you no longer used this forum.

Whilst it is an open forum where everyone is entitled to freedom of speech and their own opinion, it is to the detriment of the site and the rest of the members if you start arguments day, after day, after day.

In addition to the above, you simply cannot shout down another person's opinion because you either don't like it or disagree with it.

In refereeing terms, this is using the stepped approach and your public, final warning.


For now, this thread remains open. Any more utter stupidity from ANYONE and the thread will close. We will also have to decide whether or not this fun and interesting competition, which Super is doing off his own back and in his own time, can continue.
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It is not "starting an argument" it's called "provoking discussion".....which given that this is a discussion forum i would have thought was the object?

Fair enough though......in future we'll all just agree with PL and the other forum "in" characters lest any independent thought break out.
 
I for one love this competition @DanCohen17 because it does spark these sort of debates that you wouldn't normally come across while talking to another referee. It also gives different points of view at the situations and has given me at least some other things to think about when dealing with these situations.

@Padfoot I disagree with what you're say about the signal, it is a simple and well recognised signal and can cause no confusion between officials. The signal you are talking about is only in the interpretation part of the LOTG and so isn't technically law which means that referees can avoid it if they want to. When speaking to a PL AR he said he hates it when he is in UEFA and the AR's there use this signal because he agreed that it is too complicated.

Another signal that I use as a referee is for a tight goal/no goal decision. I ask my AR's to put their flag up vertically in their left hand then (after I have seen it) hold it out to their left hand side horizontally at about chest hight and side step towards the half way line. It works really well and looks smart and cannot be confused with any other signal. It isn't in the LOTG but what is wrong with it if it looks good and works really well??????????
 
HullRef said:
I for one love this competition @DanCohen17 because it does spark these sort of debates that you wouldn't normally come across while talking to another referee. It also gives different points of view at the situations and has given me at least some other things to think about when dealing with these situations.

@Padfoot I disagree with what you're say about the signal, it is a simple and well recognised signal and can cause no confusion between officials. The signal you are talking about is only in the interpretation part of the LOTG and so isn't technically law which means that referees can avoid it if they want to. When speaking to a PL AR he said he hates it when he is in UEFA and the AR's there use this signal because he agreed that it is too complicated.

Another signal that I use as a referee is for a tight goal/no goal decision. I ask my AR's to put their flag up vertically in their left hand then (after I have seen it) hold it out to their left hand side horizontally at about chest hight and side step towards the half way line. It works really well and looks smart and cannot be confused with any other signal. It isn't in the LOTG but what is wrong with it if it looks good and works really well??????????
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As much as i would like to respond your points, i am afraid i am effectively precluded from doing so.
 
Padfoot said:
As much as i would like to respond your points, i am afraid i am effectively precluded from doing so.
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I don't think you are, plus I would like to hear your opinions about why this signal isn't any good because it seems to work for most other referees?????
 
No, you're not precluded from doing so in any way, same as a player who's made rash challenges isn't stopped from tackling.

You aren't allowed to attack personal opinions, however you can, of course, have your own opinion that differs.


In addition, I do agree with you about Haywain's point - Haywain, please read my above post aimed for Padfoot and take note yourself!


My thoughts - I use the signal both as AR & in middle. Why? Because it's a clear signal that is expected by majority inside the ground (players, coaches, fans & assessors). It adds to credibility of a decision and the selling of such a decision.
If there's a foul on the edge of the box and I'm the referee who's unsure whether it's in or out the box, I'll be looking to my NAR for advice.
Options:
1) He takes 1 step inside the box and places flag across the chest
2) He sidesteps to the corner flag, flag in right hand.

In theory, both correct. Which one looks 'better'? For me, option 1 will aid match control, option 2 will lose match control.

I understand why some people don't want to use that option (both due to LOTG not saying to and also to detract attention from AR).
 
Personal preference, but, I expect everything in my games to be done in accordance to the laws of the game. The laws of game pg 102 clearly state the signalling procedure for a AR giving a PK and it says the AR must raise his flag (using buzzer if available) and move toward the corner flag - it does not say put flag across his chest.

I expect the AR to raise his flag and make eye contact with me. Once eye contact is made I expect him to either make exaggerated steps away from goal if it is a free kick or to run towards he corner Flag if it is a penalty. The decision doesn't always have to be instantaneous by the referee and taking a few seconds can make you give the correct decision. Not having flag across chest gives the referee opportunity to discuss with AR if there is doubt about the decision, and this removes the possibility of lack of credibility if I overrule the AR after he puts flag across his chest which is an obvious (not discreet) signal.
 
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micky2001 said:
Personal preference, but, I expect everything in my games to be done in accordance to the laws of the game. The laws of game pg 102 clearly state the signalling procedure for a AR giving a PK and it says the AR must raise his flag (using buzzer if available) and move toward the corner flag - it does not say put flag across his chest.
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But that isn't law it's only the interpretation of the law and so therefore I see that signal as a suggestion rather than an order if you see what I mean.
 
The signal is currently taught and encouraged by the Football Association at the pinnacle of English football. If it was wrong in law it would have been long gone by now!
 
Pierluigi said:
The signal is currently taught and encouraged by the Football Association at the pinnacle of English football. If it was wrong in law it would have been long gone by now!
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It is clearly outwith the LOTG, otherwise it would be in the magic booklet.

It's an illegal signal, the use of which is ignored by the FA because it enables our 'elite' referees to maintain their credibility at the expense of the ARs if it's a wrong decision.

Dress it up however you want, it's not in the LOTG and should not be used. My ARs are briefed not to use it and to follow the LOTG correctly.
Never been pulled up for it on assessment nor marked down for it.
 
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