A&H

Week 2 - the return of the big mac

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SM

SM

The avuncular one


Introduction
It is a mid week game under floodlights on a high profile league match between 2 teams attempting to avoid relegation. You are the referee with 2 neutral assistants, one of whom you know well, the other you meet pre kick off. You give your usual pre-match speech to both assistants. The match has been a little niggly, but played with the expected passion and you have controlled it well, acting when you have needed to. The players have responded as well as could be expected give the game circumstances to your refereeing style. Until....

Incident
It's towards the end of the match with the score 1-1, the yellow team have the ball on the edge of the blue penalty area directly in front of the assistant. You hear a shout in the penalty area and focus your glance there for a fraction of a second, but it is nothing of concern. By the time you focus back on the ball the attacking yellow player is down on the grass outside the penalty area holding his back writhing perhaps over theatrically in pain, the blue player is shouting for him to get up while both questioning the downed players sportsmanship and his parentage!

The assistant has the flag up and on eye contact with you runs to the corner flag and puts his flag across his nipples. You could have sworn that the yellow player with the ball was a good 3-4 yards outside the area before you glanced away. You calm the situation and allow the yellow team physio onto the pitch. You then go across to the assistant who tells you that the blue player looked to him to have punched the yellow player in the back and that he should be sent off for serious foul play. He also tells you that it is also a penalty to yellow. The assistant must pick up on the look in your eye because he quickly adds "You gotta be kidding me - you have to send him off and give the penalty! It will destroy my credibility otherwise and we will both look like idiots!"



What happens next?

The rules are the same as last week - go have a look if you can't remember! Go on, we'll wait for you... Got it? Okay.

I am aware that some of you might not have worked with neutral assistants. Focus on your experience of having been a NAR or get your head in the magic booklet or the FA guide for NARs (do an internet search for it if you haven't got it, it's really good) and see what is expected.

This week closes at midnight tomorrow

Good luck gents. May the refereeing force be with you.

Remember - message me your answer, do not post it here!
 
The Referee Store
A couple of entries received. I will confirm receipts tomorrow morning.

Keep em coming

@Ryan Owens - remember to get your entry in!
 
That was a difficult one! Hope it at least makes sense and is correct! :)
 
Yeah you made this one hard, hopefully I will be in the top three again :p

By the way, are the little cartoons supposed to be exactly right (ie. we should be commenting that the foul was outside the box on the cartoon) or am I right in thinking that it is just there as a rough guide to help explain the situation better. Ion,go ask because some people commented on the Ref's position on week 1 and I thought it was just there as a helpful, humorous addition by someone with too much free time :p *cough* @Supermonkey ;)
 
Lol hullref - yes it is exactly to scale and everything! :rolleyes:

It's just to give a visual idea of what happened. And yes I do have too much time.

Ooooooooo got a bit of a hang over right now.... Bank holidays. :alien: Don't mix grape and grain or something like that.
 
8 entries received - I will send out confirmations when I get home. Meant to do it earlier but have been lacking in energy. Not hung over at all.

You have until Midnight tonight to get your entries in.

As a reminder I am the only person who sees the entries and who submits what, the judge(s) see what you see when they anonymised and posted onto the forum. I have nothing to do with the judging.

The top 3 selected get awarded points each week. 3 for first, 2 for second, 1 for third. While you know who placed in the top 3, who scored what is being kept secret probably until the end. :) keep it interesting!

Plenty of weeks left -12 questions in total - so even if you did not enter last week there is still plenty of time to get back into the running!

Plenty of great answers so far this week, hopefully some more to come.
 
I have one query about this question (stupid to ask now as I've entered but nevermind).

The assistant who claims to have seen this "punch" and "penalty" - Is he the guy you're familiar with or is he the guy you don't know?

I know this shouldn't make a difference but in real life it probably would make a difference in terms of how the conversation would flow.
 
Xman said:
The assistant who claims to have seen this "punch" and "penalty" - Is he the guy you're familiar with or is he the guy you don't know?
Click to expand...
I was thinking the same thing:eek:
 
Everyone should have received confirmation messages - if not let me know
 
Had an extra couple last night, will confirm them later. Will get the anonymised entries up this afternoon.

A couple of guys who entered last week did not enter this week? Any reason why not guys?
 
No worries, just concerned something about the format or questions was putting people off. I offered this before but next week I could move the closing date to the Wednesday rather than the Tuesday? Would that help?
 
I think a longer deadline would definitely benefit me more as i only just managed to get mine in on time
 

Entry #1
My answer:
· Observations around the scenario? scenario mentions that i know one assistant better than the other, but doesn't tell me which of these assistants is involved in the incident. yellow is behaving "theatrically" and blue is incensed. yellow has fallen outside the box. key match influencing situation

· What would you be looking for? - i would keep eyes and ears open for any admission of guilt from blue and checking the NAR's position relative to play

· What actions would you be taking? - i would approach NAR and ask him if he's sure. yellow player started and ended outside the box so i'm not convinced it's a penalty. my gut feel suggests it's a free kick. i will sell the decision to the players to maintain his credibility. i also ask him if i really have to show red - was it really violent conduct or just a shove in the back? can we keep the blue player on the pitch or does he have to walk?

again my gut feel is that if the NAR says the player "looked to have punched" then i'm not happy to show red.

explain to NAR that the importance of getting the correct decision is the key factor, and finally thank him for his help in reaching it.

· Which laws support your answer (including law 18 if required...)? 5/6/12/13/14

· How to proceed? - yellow free kick from where the player was downed

· How would you approach the match after the incident? - i would inform both captains that although the NAR signalled penalty, his view was obscured/i had a better angle and therefore awarded the free kick. i would take responsibility for the decision and continue to support the NAR. ask fouled player to leave the field after treatment and await a signal to return

Entry #2
As explained in the scenario, the situation is under control and the physio is treating the injured player so I shall assume that is ok for now. Having just been told "You gotta be kidding me - you have to send him off and give the penalty! It will destroy my credibility otherwise and we will both look like idiots!" by my assistant, I would explain explicitly that, especially due to the important nature of the match, I am solely focussed on getting the decision right and not worried about credibility - particularly because the incident is near the end of the game. I will firmly ask him the following two questions, putting emphasis on the fact that I will take all of the stick for the decision as if I have made it myself:

1. Where did the incident take place exactly - was it inside or outside of the penalty area?
2. Are you sure that it was SFP/VC, regardless of whether it would help with credibility or not?

If the assistant answered yes to both of those questions, I would have to send off the defender and award the penalty. Although I wasn't 100 percent sure that the player was in the box, I could not tell completely and the assistant had a much clearer view. After the penalty and red card, I would ensure that I blew for everything and had close control of the game until it finished so as not to lead to another incident.

Entry 3
This is a nightmare situation that I would not want to happen.

As I referee thinking 'Oh it's nothing' to see the assistant flagging would first make me think something has happened that I haven't seen or WTF has he seen?. As mentioned in the post the assistant informs of a punch in the back which is a RC and PK restart.
Despite thinking nothing has happened you have to take on the assistants advice here for credibility reasons and to also keep full match control. You then award the penalty, call the captain over with the guilty player and explain the situation.
Following procedure you then ask the guilty player for his name and show him a red card (Dependent on the match you may want to get the players name before hand in case the guilty player tries the 'mickey mouse' approach).
Any players who have any kind comments for you or your AR are dealt with as appropriate, you also would want to attempt to head off any idiots who run over to the AR.
Regain order if it kicks off upon showing the red card and continue play with a penalty kick, then at half time or full time discuss the incident fully with your assistant and sort out any reports.
 
Entry #4
First i would be facing The FOP in case something else happens whilst i'm talking to the assistant but i would ensure all players are a suitable distance away so they can not hear the conversation and i would be confirming exactly what he/she saw and if he/she was 100% Certain of what he/she had seen.

I would take the advice of the AR and call the player over and send him off for Serious Foul Play and give a penalty kick because a Duty of an assistant referee (as mentioned in law 6) is to "indicate when misconduct or any other incident occurs out of the view of the referee" and as the referee was not looking at the incident when it occurred the AR would have had a significantly better view of the incident than the referee.

However the way the AR reacted to my doubt in my opinion would be unacceptable and i would warn him about his conduct. After the match i would send a misconduct report form in to County FA or The FA and request the assistant who saw the incident also did the same.

After sending off the player i would have the injured player removed and then take the PK before allowing the player (if ok) to re enter the FOP.

Entry #5
Observations around the scenario?
This match is an important game for both teams, so I would be adjusting the way I referee to suit the temperature that I expect the game to be at, and I would be including this in my pre-match. If I had refereed in a controlling way, I would want to continue in this manner if the players had responded well. I would probably try to man manage as much as possible in the first 10 minutes to try and make sure the players knew I was trying to help the game in the best way, but if this wasn’t possible then obviously I would use the correct sanction, at any time in the game.

What would you be looking for?
In my pre-match I would have covered the needs for an assistant to give fouls. I would be wary about the assistants position, as seen above he isn't in line with the edge on the penalty area. If this meant that the assistant had followed my pre-match, I would be happy to give the penalty. If the assistant had sold the flag and penalty signal, then I would be happy to give the penalty. I would however be going over to the assistant and making sure what he said was correct. I would confirm what had happened with the assistant.

What actions would you be taking & what laws would be supporting
I would be asking the injured player to leave the FOP once he had been assessed to receive treatment, under L5 Guidelines (P71 of 2012/13 LOAF). Under L6 (P28, if an assistant sees an incident outside of the view of the referee) and the discussion I had with my assistant, I would be awarding a penalty to the yellow team, under L12 (P36). Striking or attempting to strike is a direct free kick offence, and as the offence occurred inside the penalty area, the offence is punished by a penalty. I would then dismiss the red player for violent conduct under L12 (P39), one of the 7 sending off offences, and make sure he left the FOP and immediate surroundings before play was restarted. I would make sure the penalty was taken in accordance with law, and the player would be allowed once I had signalled to him that he was allowed to re-enter the FOP, in accordance with L5.

How to proceed?
I would proceed by having the penalty taken. I would then make sure that my match control was not affected, because if it was it could have a negative effect on the game. To do this I would make sure that I would break up the game, by not playing advantages unless very clear, awarding the simple fouls and making sure the game was under control. This would include a lot of use of my whistle and voice. I would also make sure any dissent towards my assistant was swiftly dealt with, making it clear that it would not be accepted. I would make sure the game was played in a competitive manner, but that it did not boil over. I would make sure my game was raised to match the fact that the game’s temperature would probably also raise because of the incident.

I would also make sure that the assistant and I reported the incident correctly to the appropriate governing bodies.

Entry #6

First of all I would be disappointed in the AR for using a signal that is not the LOTG to indicate a penalty. Had he used the correct signal it would be possible to salvage his credibility without having to give a penalty.

Next.....if he is alleging it is a punch, the offence is violent conduct not serious foul play.

I would ask him to talk me through what he had seen.....

Given where the player has fallen clutching his back, outside the area, and your own view that any point of contact was outside the area, then I am not inclined to be awarding the penalty. However if the AR is adamant the punch occurred I would dismiss the offender 'acting on the advice of my assistant...'.

We go back to my first point about the signal........had the AR not used the incorrect signal, flag across chest, no one would be any the wiser that he was advising a penalty, thus it would be possible to award the FK without jeopardising his credibility.
As he has put his own credibility on the line....it makes no difference, I am not going to make what I consider could be a major error in law just to save his credibility.
 
Entry #7
First I would give the pre match instructions to my NAR's. I would make sure that the new lad knows what to do with it being his first time, (I.e. If he see something that I have missed then flags, if I see all of the incident it is my call, he is there to help me and is a qualified referee himself so anything in his third I will let him deal with) I will also give him a shout durning the game when it is his call, (e.g. If the ball is in his third i would shout something like "Your call John", then he knows when to step in. This would be the same for both NAR's bug emphasised for the new one. I would also put him on the side opposite the benches.
With it being a high stakes game I would also make sure that they are both aware of after the ball incidents/retaliation as these are more common during big matches and I would expect them to be watching out for them.

With the incident I would first of all stop the game using 2/3 short blasts of the whistle and a signal to the yellow player's bench for a physio to come on. I would give a signal to my NAR to drop his flag and that I will see him in a minute when I have sorted the injured player out. I would then make sure that no blue or yellow players carried on at each other by taking a position near to where my assistant would be on the touchline so that I can observe everything. Once the situation has calmed down I would then go over to my assistant to consult with him about what he had seen. We would both be facing the FOP again to note anything that could happen.

I would ask him what he had seen. Once he has explained what he has seen then I would make sure that he knows that it happened (not thinks it happened). If he is sure the I would do as follows:

*. I would call over the captains of both teams and explain what happened. I would say that I got a signal from my assistant and upon further discussion we have decided that there was foul play by the blue team and would therefore be restarting play with a penalty and ask for them to pass the message on to their teams and managers when possible. I would then send the yellow captain away and call over the blue player who threw the punch. I would then explain to him what has happened and then go through the appropriate system of taking his name, explaining why he will be sent off, then show him the red card. After he has left the vicinity of the FOP I would restart with a penalty to the yellow team. If the injured player is ready to come back on I would let him come back on either after kick off if the penalty was scored or if the penalty was missed straight away (I.e. When the play restarts again.). I would then put a report into the CFA and the league and would make sure that my NAR does the same.

If the NAR isn't sure what happened I would do the following:

*. I would again call over the captains of both teams to explain how the game will restart. I would say something like "I stopped play immediately to attend to the injured player who sounded to be in serious pain. My assistant was getting my attention and telling me to call on the physio straight away so I did. Neither of us saw what happened, I was looking towards the goal because I was expecting a cross and so was therefore looking for any fouls in that area. My assistant was watching the offside line because he too was expecting a cross and so didn't see what happened. Because we haven't seen anything we can't give anything. I apologise if there was a foul but as you know if I don't see anything I can't give it. Because I stopped play for the injury then I will be restarting with a competitive dropped ball from where the ball was when the play was stopped. Please leave it at this, no retaliation from either team, the game has been great up to now, let's not lose it now. Pass the message onto your teams and well get the game started when the injured player is off the pitch." I'd let the injured player back on when he is ready and play has restarted when he wouldn't interfere with it.

After the match we would debrief more and talk about the incident, if the NAR wasn't sure about the incident I would discuss with him how he could deal with it better, but I would also talk about how we could've all handled the situation better so we could all gain some valuable experience and share opinions about it.
 
Entry #8
Observations around the situation

A relegation 6 pointer which is likely to be heated as expressed in the question presents a challenge for referees. Teams under desperate circumstances are willing to go to extreme measures to stay up so it helps the referee if strong action is taken where players overstep a mark in terms of their conduct. Although the match seems to have been going well for you, it can't be ruled out that extreme circumstances may arise due to the heated nature of the situation.

What to look for

While you are conversing with the assistant who wants to give a penalty, it should be considered that this conversation should be carried out side by side while facing the field of play, to catch any potential misconduct/flashpoints which are occurring especially towards the injured player or the perpetrator of the apparent foul. While this is happening, you may consider the loud shout from the penalty area from which you saw nothing. Perhaps something did happen and your far away assistant caught something (unlikely but worth a look) have a look over to see if he is trying to catch your attention.

Action to take & laws supporting

Under law 6, the assistant may have seen a foul which was out of your view as you were not looking at the incident. However, despite your doubts, the assistant does seem to be 100% which is a very important factor in this decision. It may be of benefit to speak politically and say something along the lines of "you have to be 100% sure that this is a red card and that the foul occurred in the box for me to act on what you're saying" - this buys more time and allows you to reassure yourself of the "correct decision" - however it may be important to query the incident of "serious foul play" under law 12 - as the description of a punch doesn't seem to befit the requirement for SFP as it has to be a challenge for the ball to qualify under Law 12. Perhaps violent conduct is the more fitting sanction, which still incurs the same restart, so not as important in the context of the match. Either way the player should be sent off based on the assistant's input. But after the game it may be beneficial to clear up with the assistant in the dressing room what the offence was, consulting the LotG if needed, and then call the offending player into the dressing room to clarify the offence to him, including this in your report. Also ensure that the assistant give a report of the incident as he was the only party in the team of officials who has seen it firsthand.

Restart

With regard to the "shout" before the incident occurred, this would have preceded the Red card incident, so under law 6, the other assistant may have seen something out with your view which you should act on for the purpose of the restart, but this is unlikely and if there is no signal your restart should therefore be based on the information given from your assistant which is a penalty kick to the attacking team.

Approach for the rest of the game

This incident obviously leaves the game open for carnage. Care should be taken to watch out for Foul/abusive language, reckless/excessive fouls on the player who may have exaggerated the foul for the penalty and reactions from the team who were awarded the penalty. Strong action should be taken in these circumstances, and it may be beneficial to kill the tempo of the game to ensure no excessive misconduct arises as a result of the frustration, especially if the game gets away from one of the teams in terms of the score. Also you should ensure the teamwork with your assistant is still as good as ever, including careful eye contact so that you remain on the same page for all decisions on that diagonal and there are no lingering feelings of mistrust in each other for the rest of the game which is very detrimental. Obviously after this incident, the game has had a fire lit underneath it, so dig in and fight it out!
 
Entry #9
Before the game I would make sure that I had briefed both of my assistants and that they were both aware of what to do in the case of any KMIs and/or mass confrontation. I would also ask that if either assistant should need to talk to me during the match, he/she should discreetly raise their flag to get my attention and to call me over. Although I know one assistant much better than the other, I would do my best to make sure that I treated each assistant the same and did not take one assistants word as higher than the other. They are both qualified referees, my own personal experience (or lack of it) with each official should not count for anything.

At the time of the incident, I would make sure that I was running diagonally (so that I had a good view of my assistant referee and the play in front of me) and would hope that my fitness was sufficient in order to keep up with play. Once I saw my assistant's flag up to show that he wanted a word with me, I would blow my whistle to stop play but not signal a particular decision (much in the same way I would if stopping play for an injury). I would then run over to my assistant referee and, making sure that I was facing the players to watch out for any reaction and that there were no players near us who could listen in to our conversation, converse with my assistant. I would ask him/her what they had seen and when he/she told me query whether they were 100% sure it was in the box as when I last saw the player he was quite a way outside of the box.

If my assistant told me that he/she was sure that the player who was struck was inside the box then I would go with his/her decision and award a penalty kick to the yellow team (law 12 - a direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player...strikes or attempts to strike an opponent). I will then take the offending blue players name before showing him a red card for violent conduct (law 12). After I have sent off the blue player (and before the penalty is taken) there will probably be quite a bit of confusion. In order to avert this, I will call in both the captains and explain to them what I (I won't mention the assistant referee) saw and why I have taken the action that I did. I will then allow the penalty to be taken.

I think that the incident is probably a one off and I shouldn't need to change my match control significantly. However, I will give a few "soft" free kicks to rein it in a bit and to make sure that In keep on top of it until the end.

After the game and in the privacy of our dressing room, I will invite my assistant referee to discuss the decision with me

Entry #10
You would go over to the assistant and will transfer each others statements to make sure that you are both acting upon the same issue. You will also ask the assistant to make sure that he is 100% sure that he saw what happened to make sure that you are not making the decision based upon guesses. If you as the referee is certain that the incident didn't occur in the penalty, then as the correct decision you must award to the direct free kick. However if you didn't not see the challenge and the AR is sure it occurred in the penalty area then the penalty should be awarded.

Neutral assistant referees are only there to assist and to help the referee. The referees decision is final. Therefore if the referee believes that none of this happened then a dropped ball should be used. If this did occur then a red card should be issued for violent conduct and the free kick or penalty kick should be taken depending on where the incident was taken place
 
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