A&H

Level 4 Club Marks

wazztie16

wazztie16

Level 4 Referee
Level 4 Referee
After 4 middles on MOAS where I can see my club marks, it seems I'm in the 'not a particularly good referee' books with a good few of the teams, rather than a different book.

Not really sure what I'm doing wrong as I don't feel matches go particularly badly, I generally have control and haven't had any games (bar my first game where I made a major mess up regarding law, but even then, club marks weren't horrific) that I've thought "that was a horrific performance", for example.

I've binned a manager, obviously that's going to affect my marks. I've binned a skipper after the final whistle, again, likely to affect, but then I've had a team recently that won by 2 goals, only 2 cautions for them, one a sin bin, I get on with their secretary and couple of the management, yet they scored me poor across the board resulting in a 60. The losing team gave me a 70 and they had a caution for RP.

Genuinely shocked me.

I'm currently in the bottom 10% of club marks, having not had an observation yet.

Feeling very deflated if I'm honest. Does it get better?
 
The Referee Store
Don't get hung-up with Club Marks, yes it's lovely to be near the top, but your Observations will hold more weight with your Appointments Officer.
You will always get a range of scores. Quick list of some of mine this season - 65/81 Team giving 65 won; 72.5/86 Team giving 72.5 won; 78/70 Team giving 78 won; 80/53.5 Team giving 80 won.
At level 4 it can be almost anyone sending your score in and it will depend how they're feeling (Club Sec's tend to be better as Managers focus on the result more)
Go out, referee the game in front of you and make sure you enjoy it!
 
I think @Wondering Ref has put it best here. Club marks do have an element of importance, especially if you want to progress. But you also need to take them with a pinch of salt.

I found that marks at L3 were generally a lot fairer, honest and reflected your performance better than those did at L4. This is probably down to a mixture of things, but I’d say the main one being that the secretary at L3 games tends to actually just be the secretary. Once you get to L4, quite often the secretary is the kitman, physio and assistant manager. Once they have more than 1 role, their knowledge and understanding maybe drops a tad.

It also varies at L4 based on which step the supply league is. My marks were completely different at L4 between the steps.
 
Thanks for all the replies so far. I will add it's my first season at 4. And I have no intention of progressing through the 'middle', I'm definitely more of an AR. I have been since I started a few seasons ago.

I'm just hoping that if I'm down the bottom come the end of next season (as I can't be demoted based on club marks in first season?), it won't affect me trying to take the SAR pathway.
 
There is of course reclassification to worry about, if observations and club marks are wretched
 
wazztie16 said:
Thanks for all the replies so far. I will add it's my first season at 4. And I have no intention of progressing through the 'middle', I'm definitely more of an AR. I have been since I started a few seasons ago.

I'm just hoping that if I'm down the bottom come the end of next season (as I can't be demoted based on club marks in first season?), it won't affect me trying to take the SAR pathway.
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If anything, it could aid your ambitions to become a specialist AR. Assuming your marks on that route are satisfactory.
 
RefGod said:
If anything, it could aid your ambitions to become a specialist AR. Assuming your marks on that route are satisfactory.
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Yes, I have thought that. I know of a level 4 who was offered, and has taken, SAR after their first season, based on their performances in the middle.

I'm genuinely not trying to throw my season or anything as I want to prove to myself I can cut it at 4. But I've known from day dot that middles and centre of attention isn't for me (I know I can be centre of attention on the line, but it's normally less frequently). I've known a long time that I want to progress as an AR, I'll just see how I get on going forward and hope I can make it to the SAR pathway.
 
Am I allowed to post the scores and the X boxes? With no other information visible? Just out of interest.
 
wazztie16 said:
After 4 middles on MOAS where I can see my club marks, it seems I'm in the 'not a particularly good referee' books with a good few of the teams, rather than a different book.

Not really sure what I'm doing wrong as I don't feel matches go particularly badly, I generally have control and haven't had any games (bar my first game where I made a major mess up regarding law, but even then, club marks weren't horrific) that I've thought "that was a horrific performance", for example.

I've binned a manager, obviously that's going to affect my marks. I've binned a skipper after the final whistle, again, likely to affect, but then I've had a team recently that won by 2 goals, only 2 cautions for them, one a sin bin, I get on with their secretary and couple of the management, yet they scored me poor across the board resulting in a 60. The losing team gave me a 70 and they had a caution for RP.

Genuinely shocked me.

I'm currently in the bottom 10% of club marks, having not had an observation yet.

Feeling very deflated if I'm honest. Does it get better?
Click to expand...

In the exact same boat. Had one (good) observation, but been killed by 3 clubs which has me at the bottom. In my observation my best mark was Outstanding for fitness, Observer couldn't be more complimentary about it, big sprints throughout, never caught out of position. Club marks come through...Fitness: Poor.
 
wazztie16 said:
After 4 middles on MOAS where I can see my club marks, it seems I'm in the 'not a particularly good referee' books with a good few of the teams, rather than a different book.

Not really sure what I'm doing wrong as I don't feel matches go particularly badly, I generally have control and haven't had any games (bar my first game where I made a major mess up regarding law, but even then, club marks weren't horrific) that I've thought "that was a horrific performance", for example.

I've binned a manager, obviously that's going to affect my marks. I've binned a skipper after the final whistle, again, likely to affect, but then I've had a team recently that won by 2 goals, only 2 cautions for them, one a sin bin, I get on with their secretary and couple of the management, yet they scored me poor across the board resulting in a 60. The losing team gave me a 70 and they had a caution for RP.

Genuinely shocked me.

I'm currently in the bottom 10% of club marks, having not had an observation yet.

Feeling very deflated if I'm honest. Does it get better?
Click to expand...
Yes, it does get better :) First year to the step 5/6 league is always difficult, as the clubs don't know you. There is a lot in the "this referee focuses on..." which the clubs know about and will hinder your performance in their eyes. Also, as a newbie; you will tend to get "lower level" matches in the leagues, where the clubs aren't as good and they blame somebody else (the referee) for their poor performance.

Wait until you get the observations coming in, then you will see if there any real issues with your performances. You should also have a coach to help you, see if they can come along to watch one of your matches to guide you
 
lincs22 said:
Yes, it does get better :) First year to the step 5/6 league is always difficult, as the clubs don't know you. There is a lot in the "this referee focuses on..." which the clubs know about and will hinder your performance in their eyes. Also, as a newbie; you will tend to get "lower level" matches in the leagues, where the clubs aren't as good and they blame somebody else (the referee) for their poor performance.

Wait until you get the observations coming in, then you will see if there any real issues with your performances. You should also have a coach to help you, see if they can come along to watch one of your matches to guide you
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2nd this.

First year at level 4 I was A for observers E for clubs all season. Finished B + D.

I'm had a similar experience at level 3. I've stopped looking as to concentrate on my reffing again. I became to statistics focussed and think it was hampering.
Much preferred just getting the bandings Oct, Dec, Feb.
 
Frustrating one for me last week..
Home team won 3-0. Including a goal which I played a great (if I say so myself) advantage on. Even had a couple of players saying that it was a great advantage, felt good for them to have noticed it.
No controversy in the whole game.

Away club - 80.
Home club - 72.25.
I received an email after putting in my match report from the club sec asking why I had marked them down for not providing programmes as they were provided throughout the ground (in CCFL programmes are required in the officials changing room, and it's a drop down box on our report). The cynic in me questions whether my club marks reflect the fact that I reported this...

Assuming they saw my report, before submitting there report, I wonder if this needs to be amended so it doesn't influence tit for tat scoring.

Ultimately it doesn't have any effect on me as I'm sat quite high in club marks, but just feels frustrating to not get recognised by clubs for good performances
 
At step 6 and above it is things like this that are just as likely, if not more likely, to get you marked down than for giving correct decisions against them. I always used to strongly disagree with things like sporting behaviour, pitch quality, hospitality, etc, being on the match report form (back in the day when they were carbonated and handed to the clubs before leaving the ground. It made monitoring these things pointless as most referees would just mark as good, as they knew if they didn't they'd get marked down.

In an ideal world the league shouldn't send the match report to the clubs until after the deadline for submitting referee marks.
 
MattTheRef said:
Frustrating one for me last week..
Home team won 3-0. Including a goal which I played a great (if I say so myself) advantage on. Even had a couple of players saying that it was a great advantage, felt good for them to have noticed it.
No controversy in the whole game.

Away club - 80.
Home club - 72.25.
I received an email after putting in my match report from the club sec asking why I had marked them down for not providing programmes as they were provided throughout the ground (in CCFL programmes are required in the officials changing room, and it's a drop down box on our report). The cynic in me questions whether my club marks reflect the fact that I reported this...

Assuming they saw my report, before submitting there report, I wonder if this needs to be amended so it doesn't influence tit for tat scoring.

Ultimately it doesn't have any effect on me as I'm sat quite high in club marks, but just feels frustrating to not get recognised by clubs for good performances
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I was out at Jersey Bulls a few weeks back and had a really decent game
The away team felt I should've sent a player off for SFP. Their Report was excellent because they rated me poor for Major Decisions, but Very Good (or similar) for everything else... so a score of 81.0 (For the record, I was quite happy with my Caution for RP, but I welcomed the Club's opinion given they didn't just kill me on everything)
The Home Club (who I got on with splendidly) just stuck in the dreaded & lazy 'standard expected' 70.0

Ultimately, that's the severe problem at our Level. I see the lazy 70 as a worse problem than getting a bad score off the losing or aggrieved team

Also, interestingly, Edgeware, the Secretary is a player. I got an OK score off him. I could've predicted the breakdown very accurately from interactions I had with that player during the game. Again, that's what we want. A fair appraisal by somebody who has the capacity to judge each competency on its own merits in the way the FA intended
 
Big Cat said:
I was out at Jersey Bulls a few weeks back and had a really decent game
The away team felt I should've sent a player off for SFP. Their Report was excellent because they rated me poor for Major Decisions, but Very Good (or similar) for everything else... so a score of 81.0 (For the record, I was quite happy with my Caution for RP, but I welcomed the Club's opinion given they didn't just kill me on everything)
The Home Club (who I got on with splendidly) just stuck in the dreaded & lazy 'standard expected' 70.0

Ultimately, that's the severe problem at our Level. I see the lazy 70 as a worse problem than getting a bad score off the losing or aggrieved team

Also, interestingly, Edgeware, the Secretary is a player. I got an OK score off him. I could've predicted the breakdown very accurately from interactions I had with that player during the game. Again, that's what we want. A fair appraisal by somebody who has the capacity to judge each competency on its own merits in the way the FA intended
Click to expand...
I was literally just up the road from there last weekend. Walked from the airport to the ground.
 
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