Asking a manager to substitute
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MattyontheWhistle
RefChat Addict
It is interesting the different approaches here with juniors, youth and senior games. I agree, Violent Conduct is a red at any age. However, last season I coached an u10s Boys team, and I was surprised at how little they understood the LOTG, this is what led me to becoming a referee - I went and did the course to become a better coach! I use the red and yellow cards as 'discipline' at training and it's amazing how many kids don;t even know what they are!
Having coached at u6 through to u10, I do feel there has to be some 'give' in the sanctions against players for some offences, but it comes down to the situation and context in which the offence takes place with no hard-and-fast dos and don;ts.
foul throws for example are common, and I have noticed that the correct way to throw-in is rarely taught to kids - they have to learn as they play. So, if say, an eight year old lifts their back foot at a throw, I will blow, explain to the kid why I blew, the correct way "Keep both feet on the ground, on or behind the line" then let him take it again. If he does it again, award the throw the other way.
In the case of dangerous play, or serious foul play, I have in the past suggested to the coach that he subs the kid off 'to cool down a bit' but I make sure the kid understands that he has committed an offence serious enough to warrant sanctions, and to 'go and have a think on it'. Any further discretions and the cards come out.
My mantra at junior level is "Give the kids a chance, just let them play" but I also see my role as referee as being in part a 'LOTG Coach' as you can bet your wife's undies that their coach won't be teaching the Laws properly! I find it difficult to punish a kid fully, if they don't know what they've done wrong.
I also spend a lot of time after the game explaining some of the Laws to them if they showed a lack of understanding during the game. In particular, throw-ins, dropped ball situations etc. Surprisingly, most have an understanding of offside by age 10 (probably because coach knows it causes/creates goals!) but more basic stuff is ignored on the training pitch.
However, u6 to u10 I class as 'Junior', with little or no 'Law Awareness', u11 - u16 is 'Youth' and here we do apply the laws but with a little bit of leniency - I don't think it is reasonable to expect kids to show the same level of self-control, self-awareness and maturity in decision-making as we expect adults to and I try and ref those games bearing that in mind.
A big problem we have here in NZ, is that very often, Little Johnny the 6 year old is the first member of the family to play the game with the round ball, and his coach is only coaching because his Little Jimmy is in the team. I have heard things like 'if the ball doesn't touch the net, it's not a goal', claiming a throw-in because the player's foot went over the line while the ball remained in play (as per rugby) and that the GK can 'take a mark' when catching the ball meaning no one can go within a meter of him until he has caught the ball and released it.
But then, growing up in the game in the UK, since I was u6, the first time I even SAW a copy of the LOTG was when I signed schoolboy forms with Burnley - the club gave me a copy. I was 14 so nearly ten years in the game before the Laws were given to me.
I do think that footie should follow Golfs example, and give a small copy of the Laws to everyone when they join a club, whatever age or level.
Having coached at u6 through to u10, I do feel there has to be some 'give' in the sanctions against players for some offences, but it comes down to the situation and context in which the offence takes place with no hard-and-fast dos and don;ts.
foul throws for example are common, and I have noticed that the correct way to throw-in is rarely taught to kids - they have to learn as they play. So, if say, an eight year old lifts their back foot at a throw, I will blow, explain to the kid why I blew, the correct way "Keep both feet on the ground, on or behind the line" then let him take it again. If he does it again, award the throw the other way.
In the case of dangerous play, or serious foul play, I have in the past suggested to the coach that he subs the kid off 'to cool down a bit' but I make sure the kid understands that he has committed an offence serious enough to warrant sanctions, and to 'go and have a think on it'. Any further discretions and the cards come out.
My mantra at junior level is "Give the kids a chance, just let them play" but I also see my role as referee as being in part a 'LOTG Coach' as you can bet your wife's undies that their coach won't be teaching the Laws properly! I find it difficult to punish a kid fully, if they don't know what they've done wrong.
I also spend a lot of time after the game explaining some of the Laws to them if they showed a lack of understanding during the game. In particular, throw-ins, dropped ball situations etc. Surprisingly, most have an understanding of offside by age 10 (probably because coach knows it causes/creates goals!) but more basic stuff is ignored on the training pitch.
However, u6 to u10 I class as 'Junior', with little or no 'Law Awareness', u11 - u16 is 'Youth' and here we do apply the laws but with a little bit of leniency - I don't think it is reasonable to expect kids to show the same level of self-control, self-awareness and maturity in decision-making as we expect adults to and I try and ref those games bearing that in mind.
A big problem we have here in NZ, is that very often, Little Johnny the 6 year old is the first member of the family to play the game with the round ball, and his coach is only coaching because his Little Jimmy is in the team. I have heard things like 'if the ball doesn't touch the net, it's not a goal', claiming a throw-in because the player's foot went over the line while the ball remained in play (as per rugby) and that the GK can 'take a mark' when catching the ball meaning no one can go within a meter of him until he has caught the ball and released it.
But then, growing up in the game in the UK, since I was u6, the first time I even SAW a copy of the LOTG was when I signed schoolboy forms with Burnley - the club gave me a copy. I was 14 so nearly ten years in the game before the Laws were given to me.
I do think that footie should follow Golfs example, and give a small copy of the Laws to everyone when they join a club, whatever age or level.
MattyontheWhistle
RefChat Addict
Apologies for the essay in the last post!
Having read, re-read, edited and thought on it, I have come up with some ideas to take to my next club committee meeting (I am Referee CoOrdinator) to try and encourage a better understanding of the game and the laws among the parents and juniors for next season.
So, even if you didn't read/appreciate/take anything from my last post I certainly did!!!!
Having read, re-read, edited and thought on it, I have come up with some ideas to take to my next club committee meeting (I am Referee CoOrdinator) to try and encourage a better understanding of the game and the laws among the parents and juniors for next season.
So, even if you didn't read/appreciate/take anything from my last post I certainly did!!!!
But by punishing them correctly, you are teaching them the LOTG and anything else would be to teach them half. The LOTG don't just say "it's illegal to..." they also say "when someone does ... they are punished by..." so in order to teach them, properly teach them, the LOTG, you must employ the full LOTG. Don't look at it as punishing the kid for being bad, look at it as teaching the kid what happens when he exhibits that kind of behaviour. If he didn't know he couldn't do it before, he will know now. Besides, at this age, they will be upset at having been kicked out for all of fourty minutes before they're off with their mates doing something else.
MattyontheWhistle
RefChat Addict
Sorry, but I can't agree with that on any level to do with 10 year olds and under.If they don't understand the laws of the game, how can they understand what they are doing is wrong or what they are being punished for?
Firstly, I should explain that I am refereeing, and coaching, in New Zealand, and kids here get very little exposure to football in comparison to say, the UK. I don't know the situation in Canada, only ever having experience in the UK and NZ.
It is not all over the papers, or on TV other than subscription TV and very few kids at our club have access to Sky. For those that do, the programs we get are mostly void of 'talking heads' and analysis where decisions are discussed with the aid of replays. I think this exposure to the game, playing and watching it, are huge when it comes to kids learning the game, because they see the fouls on TV, and the cards that the ref uses and the discussions in the studio. Here we have kids asking parents, and the parents have no clue because they have never watched a football match before. I've heard "That's a blue card ref!" shouted by a parent at a game my boys team were playing - yeah mate, isn't that Hockey?
A child needs to understand what is within and without the laws, BEFORE you meter out the punishment.If they don;t know what's 'right' and what's 'wrong' they should be taught, but punishing them is never the best way to teach.
Sure, VC is a socially unacceptable behaviour on or off the pitch, so kicking or striking an opponent and the kid should already know it's unacceptable behaviour, but mis-timing a tackle, or challenging with a high boot or tackling from behind etc in a nation where the national sport involves stamping, mauling, wrestling opponents to the ground and scrumming?!?!?
Imagine, a training session, where an 8 year old is praised for a good tackle when he slid in and took the ball cleanly from the side. The following Saturday, he slides in on an opponent, this time from behind, taking opponent first. In his mind 'sliding in' received praise from Coach before, but now it's got him in trouble....and what does a yellow card mean anyway?
Surely it's better to have a quick word with him, and his coach. Ask that coach takes him aside and explains why he just gave away a free kick while the rest get on with the game. We have rolling subs for juniors, so another kid gets a bit more pitch-time and the offender comes back on after a few minutes, usually with an apology ""I'm sorry ref, I didn't know" "Thank you, but it's your opponent you should apologise to" if he didn't know it was wrong before, he does now.
At Junior level, we are part of the children's 'football development system' and at all times, as a responsible adult with these children in our care, safety and enjoyment are the priorities. Let's help the kids understand the Laws, rather than just punish them for breaking them. Understand the kids and help them in the game instead of being officious - it will earn us far more respect from players AND their parents.
I spend an awful lot of time down on one knee at Junior games, because I make sure I am at eye level when talking to the kids, I will praise them for good play, I always say what a free kick is given for, or which way a throw is given 'Throw-in, blue ball it came off red' and in some situations, as I mentioned before, will let them have 'another go' before penalising a foul-throw. Simply because I can never assume they know the Laws before playing, but it is part of my job to help them understand and no player, at any age, ever got better by standing on the touchline getting bored.
Let the kids play!
Firstly, I should explain that I am refereeing, and coaching, in New Zealand, and kids here get very little exposure to football in comparison to say, the UK. I don't know the situation in Canada, only ever having experience in the UK and NZ.
It is not all over the papers, or on TV other than subscription TV and very few kids at our club have access to Sky. For those that do, the programs we get are mostly void of 'talking heads' and analysis where decisions are discussed with the aid of replays. I think this exposure to the game, playing and watching it, are huge when it comes to kids learning the game, because they see the fouls on TV, and the cards that the ref uses and the discussions in the studio. Here we have kids asking parents, and the parents have no clue because they have never watched a football match before. I've heard "That's a blue card ref!" shouted by a parent at a game my boys team were playing - yeah mate, isn't that Hockey?
A child needs to understand what is within and without the laws, BEFORE you meter out the punishment.If they don;t know what's 'right' and what's 'wrong' they should be taught, but punishing them is never the best way to teach.
Sure, VC is a socially unacceptable behaviour on or off the pitch, so kicking or striking an opponent and the kid should already know it's unacceptable behaviour, but mis-timing a tackle, or challenging with a high boot or tackling from behind etc in a nation where the national sport involves stamping, mauling, wrestling opponents to the ground and scrumming?!?!?
Imagine, a training session, where an 8 year old is praised for a good tackle when he slid in and took the ball cleanly from the side. The following Saturday, he slides in on an opponent, this time from behind, taking opponent first. In his mind 'sliding in' received praise from Coach before, but now it's got him in trouble....and what does a yellow card mean anyway?
Surely it's better to have a quick word with him, and his coach. Ask that coach takes him aside and explains why he just gave away a free kick while the rest get on with the game. We have rolling subs for juniors, so another kid gets a bit more pitch-time and the offender comes back on after a few minutes, usually with an apology ""I'm sorry ref, I didn't know" "Thank you, but it's your opponent you should apologise to" if he didn't know it was wrong before, he does now.
At Junior level, we are part of the children's 'football development system' and at all times, as a responsible adult with these children in our care, safety and enjoyment are the priorities. Let's help the kids understand the Laws, rather than just punish them for breaking them. Understand the kids and help them in the game instead of being officious - it will earn us far more respect from players AND their parents.
I spend an awful lot of time down on one knee at Junior games, because I make sure I am at eye level when talking to the kids, I will praise them for good play, I always say what a free kick is given for, or which way a throw is given 'Throw-in, blue ball it came off red' and in some situations, as I mentioned before, will let them have 'another go' before penalising a foul-throw. Simply because I can never assume they know the Laws before playing, but it is part of my job to help them understand and no player, at any age, ever got better by standing on the touchline getting bored.
Let the kids play!
Reffariiii
RefChat Addict
I must agree with Ryan here. If a 9 year old takes a foul throw, you blow up and explain to him the law and he takes it again, then he is much more likely to commit the same offence, than if you punish him accordingly by giving the throw to the other team.
The same with a foul. If a player commits a red card tackle, you blow up and give him a talking too, he might well commit the same offence again, it is the nature of children. If you properly punish him and show him a red card, then he is much less likely to commit that offence again.
Just because you punish him accordingly does not mean that you are not educating him. Its the same in school, if a child in 'naughty', the teacher will tell him what he has done wrong and punish him accordingly, and he is unlikely to do that again. If the teacher was to just give him a talking too, then chances are, he would persist being a naughty boy!
The same with a foul. If a player commits a red card tackle, you blow up and give him a talking too, he might well commit the same offence again, it is the nature of children. If you properly punish him and show him a red card, then he is much less likely to commit that offence again.
Just because you punish him accordingly does not mean that you are not educating him. Its the same in school, if a child in 'naughty', the teacher will tell him what he has done wrong and punish him accordingly, and he is unlikely to do that again. If the teacher was to just give him a talking too, then chances are, he would persist being a naughty boy!
MattyontheWhistle
RefChat Addict
With my Coach's hat on, sending an eight year old off does nothing to aid his or her development in the game, especially if he doesn't understand why he's being punished.
The LOTG are written by adults, for adults to play by - expecting an 8 or 9 year old to grasp the concepts within them is a big ask.
The clumsy kid, with little coordination who is there because he loves running around with his friends on a Saturday morning will give his best, but ultimately, will leave the game because he keeps getting sent off.
We need to nurture these kids carefully, develop a sense of respect and a love of the game in them. Harsh punishment will not achieve this.
Education is the key here, and as officials, we have a responsibility to help these kids along and showing them red cards really isn't going to help.
Child development studies all agree that children under about 11 don't understand the concept of 'team' properly, their physical development is such that they have yet to develop proper coordination, vision and balance. Their minds don;t see the 'big picture', they just want the ball. Their football understanding is such that 'we get the ball, we get it forward, we get it in the goal'.
In terms of understanding the Laws, 'Can't be further forward than the last defender' is about as far as you can expect an eight year old to understand offside - they don't even get the concept that the GK is a defender too, so saying '2nd last defender' they don't get. With this in mind, can you really expect them to understand the concepts of 'interefering with play' or 'being in an offside position is NOT an offence unless.....'
When coaching the kids, something as simple as the back pass to the goalkeeper can take half a dozen repetitions before an eight year old grasps the idea that he can't touch it with his hands if a teammate kicks it back, but it's OK if he heads or chests it back. But by next week's training session, you know he will have forgotten a lot of it and you have to go over it again. Different learning techniques - some kids learn visually, some verbally and some by demonstration - so many things have to be explained in at least three different ways before all kids 'get it', and then you need to repeat it all over and over before they can retain it.
Throw in a squad member or two with ADHD, or learning difficulties or special needs that require a completely different approach and it's amazing that anything can be achieved at a training session sometimes let alone them grasping the intricacies of the LOTG.
Same with the sanctions, a kid commits DOGSO, you give the DFK or penalty, explain to the kid that he should be sent off in that situation and why, but leave him on the pitch and let him play. If he does it again then punish him by all means. But give him a chance.
See the world through the eyes of an eight year old before you apply sanctions that were designed for adults.
I've said my bit now, I am, first and foremost, a junior football coach, before I am a referee and my thoughts in this thread have come more from a coach's viewpoint than that of a referee. Help these kids along in the game don't just punish them straight away - they probably won't know what they've done wrong.
Take care all
The LOTG are written by adults, for adults to play by - expecting an 8 or 9 year old to grasp the concepts within them is a big ask.
The clumsy kid, with little coordination who is there because he loves running around with his friends on a Saturday morning will give his best, but ultimately, will leave the game because he keeps getting sent off.
We need to nurture these kids carefully, develop a sense of respect and a love of the game in them. Harsh punishment will not achieve this.
Education is the key here, and as officials, we have a responsibility to help these kids along and showing them red cards really isn't going to help.
Child development studies all agree that children under about 11 don't understand the concept of 'team' properly, their physical development is such that they have yet to develop proper coordination, vision and balance. Their minds don;t see the 'big picture', they just want the ball. Their football understanding is such that 'we get the ball, we get it forward, we get it in the goal'.
In terms of understanding the Laws, 'Can't be further forward than the last defender' is about as far as you can expect an eight year old to understand offside - they don't even get the concept that the GK is a defender too, so saying '2nd last defender' they don't get. With this in mind, can you really expect them to understand the concepts of 'interefering with play' or 'being in an offside position is NOT an offence unless.....'
When coaching the kids, something as simple as the back pass to the goalkeeper can take half a dozen repetitions before an eight year old grasps the idea that he can't touch it with his hands if a teammate kicks it back, but it's OK if he heads or chests it back. But by next week's training session, you know he will have forgotten a lot of it and you have to go over it again. Different learning techniques - some kids learn visually, some verbally and some by demonstration - so many things have to be explained in at least three different ways before all kids 'get it', and then you need to repeat it all over and over before they can retain it.
Throw in a squad member or two with ADHD, or learning difficulties or special needs that require a completely different approach and it's amazing that anything can be achieved at a training session sometimes let alone them grasping the intricacies of the LOTG.
Same with the sanctions, a kid commits DOGSO, you give the DFK or penalty, explain to the kid that he should be sent off in that situation and why, but leave him on the pitch and let him play. If he does it again then punish him by all means. But give him a chance.
See the world through the eyes of an eight year old before you apply sanctions that were designed for adults.
I've said my bit now, I am, first and foremost, a junior football coach, before I am a referee and my thoughts in this thread have come more from a coach's viewpoint than that of a referee. Help these kids along in the game don't just punish them straight away - they probably won't know what they've done wrong.
Take care all
Reffariiii
RefChat Addict
This might be where the difference between the UK and your neck of the woods is.
I agree, at this age children need to be taught, but not giving them the proper disciplinary sanction is not the way to do it. If that clumsy 8 year old that doesn't know what he's doing is shown a card and no more then I agree, it doesn't do him any good. On the flip side, just telling him will do now good either, if you call him over, explain to him that what he did was wrong, and that in football it is punishable by a card, and then show him the card, it will have much greater effect.
I think your point about him quiting the game because he is being sent off is invalid. If a player 8 years of age gets sent off so often that he quits, there is a serious coaching problem at his club. If he commits a red card offence, the referee explains to him its a red card, shows him a red card, and then the coach also talks to him, he is unlikely to commit the same offence. What is better, a young player have a little cry because he got sent off as an 8 year old or a player going around breaking peoples legs and not getting sanctioned?
Lets not forget, the referee's main priority, at any level, is to enforce the Laws of The Game. The coaches are primarily responsible for teaching the players about them.
In regards to offside, again, I don't really understand the issue, because offside doesn't usually come in until U12, U14 in some places. Offside isn't something that they necessarily need to know straight away. Red card offences are.
Like you say, you have your coaching head on, but as a referee / an assessor, I would be very disappointed to see somebody referee with your approach. Educate, yes. Coach, yes. But not at the expense of your duty to enforce the Laws of The Game.
I agree, at this age children need to be taught, but not giving them the proper disciplinary sanction is not the way to do it. If that clumsy 8 year old that doesn't know what he's doing is shown a card and no more then I agree, it doesn't do him any good. On the flip side, just telling him will do now good either, if you call him over, explain to him that what he did was wrong, and that in football it is punishable by a card, and then show him the card, it will have much greater effect.
I think your point about him quiting the game because he is being sent off is invalid. If a player 8 years of age gets sent off so often that he quits, there is a serious coaching problem at his club. If he commits a red card offence, the referee explains to him its a red card, shows him a red card, and then the coach also talks to him, he is unlikely to commit the same offence. What is better, a young player have a little cry because he got sent off as an 8 year old or a player going around breaking peoples legs and not getting sanctioned?
Lets not forget, the referee's main priority, at any level, is to enforce the Laws of The Game. The coaches are primarily responsible for teaching the players about them.
In regards to offside, again, I don't really understand the issue, because offside doesn't usually come in until U12, U14 in some places. Offside isn't something that they necessarily need to know straight away. Red card offences are.
Like you say, you have your coaching head on, but as a referee / an assessor, I would be very disappointed to see somebody referee with your approach. Educate, yes. Coach, yes. But not at the expense of your duty to enforce the Laws of The Game.
A
Arran Williams
Guest
common point here Rugby, round 'r end I've been informed from the 1st time the kids pick up that thing they are taught to be respectful to the ref, their opponents and their teammates! any sign of not doing the above the club 1st take action but if that isn't forthcoming the referee does. I understand they get sin binned rather than full games but i think if a player of any age commits these sorts of things then they don't deserve to be given a 2nd chance.
MattyontheWhistle
RefChat Addict
OK, Having read through the whole thread again, I am maybe not making my point very well - the problem with the written word is that you can't see my face or read my body language while I am 'speaking'.
Now, I am not saying 'Do NOT punish the kids according to the LOTG" I am simply saying that, as Junior refrees (u11 and below) we are told to explain the Law that has been broken, but let the kid carry on with the game. If that child commits the same offence in the same game, THEN you use the sanctions under the LOTG. Understand that next week, if you get the same kid again, remember that he has probably forgotten everything you told him last week.
As I have said before, first and foremost I am a Junior Coach, so, here's what I have done over the weekend.
I have downloaded the LOTG from the FIFA site, and emailed the PDF to a few friends/acquaintances/colleagues.
These people are:
A Professor of Psychology in the UK
A Phd in Junior Education and recently retired Senior Lecturer at MMU in the Primary Education department.
A child psycholgy specialist (my sister-in-law) who has been recognised for her work in Child Development by her peers
My children ( 7yrs old and 9 yrs old) both of whom have had at least one season playing football. (and yes, they have email!)
My father - a former primary school teacher who ran the school football team (11 year olds)
Three current teachers at my local primary school (where I am also involved with the football teams), one of whom is the Sports Coordinator, but all three are active in different sports themsleves.
My wife, a Kiwi who played at National Level when at secondary school and who still plays at a 'social' level.
There is a mix of UK and NZ people in this list, and one had a child who went to the top of the game in the UK (never played for England, but did play at the top level of 'old' Div 1/Prem). Also, out of interest, I asked the lecturer to contact a former Man Utd Player, who went into teaching after his career ended early and was one of her students. It will be interesting to hear a former pro players take on this now that he is in an educational role dealing with primary kids.
There is also a former school - and team-mate of mine who went on to work as a coach in Derby County's youth academy I would like to put the same questions to him, but unfortunately I lost touch 20 years ago and haven't been able to track him down yet.
I have asked each the same question, and, ommitting the usual friendly pleasantries (and obviously 'dumbing it down' for my kids, here's the relevant bit of the email :
Please spend some time reading the attached PDF, these are the official Laws for the game of Football. (LOTG) As you know, I am involved with coaching children into the game, as well as officiating at matches involving players from age 7 to adult, and I would ask for your professional opinion on the following questions. (Generalisations are fine for these answers)
In your professional opinion, do you think that a child up to the age of 11 would be able to understand the LOTG fully before playing a game?
If not, would they be able to understand them in part, or in a more simplified form? If so, which Laws should be simplified?
Is it in the best interests of the child, in terms of educational development, to issue the sanctions as dictated by the LOTG immediately an offence is committed (yellow or red card offences as set out in the LOTG)?
I have also asked permission from our RDO to reproduce the course-work given to those who attend our CBR (Club Based Referee) course 'designed to give a basic understanding of the LOTG to increase your enjoyment of the game and enable you to take control of a Junior Match with no previous experience in the game' so you can see just where we are starting from here. the course material has three sides of A4 on the LOTG.
I am looking forward to the responses - not particularly scientific I know, but it should be interesting. It will certainly help me as a coach!
On another note, and referring back to an earlier post, having lost an incredibly talented 7 year old girl from the game, simply because she got hit in the face by the ball once, gives you some idea of how easy it is to lose players from the game. She now plays hockey!
(By talented I mean this kid could trap a ball, roll it either side with the sole, the inside and outside of the foot, and pass it accurately with any area of the foot, could shoot 'off the laces', with accuracy and would pass to team mates in a better position - imagine Paul Scholes as a 7 year old girl (yes, she had red hair and frowned a lot as well) AND she could tackle - in yer face Scholesy!)
This is the delicacy with which we have to handle these kids. Simple, black and white (or Red and Yellow) discipline is not the way I deal with them - I prefer to help them understand WHY things are wrong, to give them the tools to make their own decisions to react to situations. Only when they understand the offence and the reason it IS an offence does punishment become a useful tool for learning.
The example of a school teacher is an interesting one, as most school 'rules' are based on socially acceptable behaviour, which the kids should have a rough grasp of by the time they are 5, or safety - and these are usually explained to the kids from their first day. With 7 or 8 year olds on a football pitch, we could be in the situation where we are punishing them for things they have never heard of before!
I agree, this is the parents, and coaches responsibility, but in reality, with an hour a week at training (if that) the coaches don't get the time to fully develop the kids as players let alone understanding LOTG, and we are encouraged to do EVERYTHING with a ball at every players feet (no standing in line waiting for their 'turn' to shoot/pass/dribble)
As a coach, whenever we are playing an SSG at training, I apply the LOTG and explain as we go - many coaches don''t, too many junior coaches have never read the LOTG, hardly any parents have a clue about the LOTG.
Education is the key, I think we simply differ on the best way to educate, and there can never be a 'hard-and-fast' or 'one-size-fits-all' solution when it comes to kids of this age.
I may be wrong, but I am thankful I am able to tap into some experts in the fields of child development and education to help me with my role in the game, and I hope the kids I work with will benefit.
So, thanks to all who contributed to this thread - it will make me a better coach!
Give me a few days and I'll report on the responses I get from the email.
Now, I am not saying 'Do NOT punish the kids according to the LOTG" I am simply saying that, as Junior refrees (u11 and below) we are told to explain the Law that has been broken, but let the kid carry on with the game. If that child commits the same offence in the same game, THEN you use the sanctions under the LOTG. Understand that next week, if you get the same kid again, remember that he has probably forgotten everything you told him last week.
As I have said before, first and foremost I am a Junior Coach, so, here's what I have done over the weekend.
I have downloaded the LOTG from the FIFA site, and emailed the PDF to a few friends/acquaintances/colleagues.
These people are:
A Professor of Psychology in the UK
A Phd in Junior Education and recently retired Senior Lecturer at MMU in the Primary Education department.
A child psycholgy specialist (my sister-in-law) who has been recognised for her work in Child Development by her peers
My children ( 7yrs old and 9 yrs old) both of whom have had at least one season playing football. (and yes, they have email!)
My father - a former primary school teacher who ran the school football team (11 year olds)
Three current teachers at my local primary school (where I am also involved with the football teams), one of whom is the Sports Coordinator, but all three are active in different sports themsleves.
My wife, a Kiwi who played at National Level when at secondary school and who still plays at a 'social' level.
There is a mix of UK and NZ people in this list, and one had a child who went to the top of the game in the UK (never played for England, but did play at the top level of 'old' Div 1/Prem). Also, out of interest, I asked the lecturer to contact a former Man Utd Player, who went into teaching after his career ended early and was one of her students. It will be interesting to hear a former pro players take on this now that he is in an educational role dealing with primary kids.
There is also a former school - and team-mate of mine who went on to work as a coach in Derby County's youth academy I would like to put the same questions to him, but unfortunately I lost touch 20 years ago and haven't been able to track him down yet.
I have asked each the same question, and, ommitting the usual friendly pleasantries (and obviously 'dumbing it down' for my kids, here's the relevant bit of the email :
Please spend some time reading the attached PDF, these are the official Laws for the game of Football. (LOTG) As you know, I am involved with coaching children into the game, as well as officiating at matches involving players from age 7 to adult, and I would ask for your professional opinion on the following questions. (Generalisations are fine for these answers)
In your professional opinion, do you think that a child up to the age of 11 would be able to understand the LOTG fully before playing a game?
If not, would they be able to understand them in part, or in a more simplified form? If so, which Laws should be simplified?
Is it in the best interests of the child, in terms of educational development, to issue the sanctions as dictated by the LOTG immediately an offence is committed (yellow or red card offences as set out in the LOTG)?
I have also asked permission from our RDO to reproduce the course-work given to those who attend our CBR (Club Based Referee) course 'designed to give a basic understanding of the LOTG to increase your enjoyment of the game and enable you to take control of a Junior Match with no previous experience in the game' so you can see just where we are starting from here. the course material has three sides of A4 on the LOTG.
I am looking forward to the responses - not particularly scientific I know, but it should be interesting. It will certainly help me as a coach!
On another note, and referring back to an earlier post, having lost an incredibly talented 7 year old girl from the game, simply because she got hit in the face by the ball once, gives you some idea of how easy it is to lose players from the game. She now plays hockey!
(By talented I mean this kid could trap a ball, roll it either side with the sole, the inside and outside of the foot, and pass it accurately with any area of the foot, could shoot 'off the laces', with accuracy and would pass to team mates in a better position - imagine Paul Scholes as a 7 year old girl (yes, she had red hair and frowned a lot as well) AND she could tackle - in yer face Scholesy!)
This is the delicacy with which we have to handle these kids. Simple, black and white (or Red and Yellow) discipline is not the way I deal with them - I prefer to help them understand WHY things are wrong, to give them the tools to make their own decisions to react to situations. Only when they understand the offence and the reason it IS an offence does punishment become a useful tool for learning.
The example of a school teacher is an interesting one, as most school 'rules' are based on socially acceptable behaviour, which the kids should have a rough grasp of by the time they are 5, or safety - and these are usually explained to the kids from their first day. With 7 or 8 year olds on a football pitch, we could be in the situation where we are punishing them for things they have never heard of before!
I agree, this is the parents, and coaches responsibility, but in reality, with an hour a week at training (if that) the coaches don't get the time to fully develop the kids as players let alone understanding LOTG, and we are encouraged to do EVERYTHING with a ball at every players feet (no standing in line waiting for their 'turn' to shoot/pass/dribble)
As a coach, whenever we are playing an SSG at training, I apply the LOTG and explain as we go - many coaches don''t, too many junior coaches have never read the LOTG, hardly any parents have a clue about the LOTG.
Education is the key, I think we simply differ on the best way to educate, and there can never be a 'hard-and-fast' or 'one-size-fits-all' solution when it comes to kids of this age.
I may be wrong, but I am thankful I am able to tap into some experts in the fields of child development and education to help me with my role in the game, and I hope the kids I work with will benefit.
So, thanks to all who contributed to this thread - it will make me a better coach!
Give me a few days and I'll report on the responses I get from the email.
MattyontheWhistle
RefChat Addict
Back again! Just been out for a smoke, it's 3am and I've pondering this thread further so here's a question for those that referee through all age groups.
At what age do young footballers become 'Legally Responsible" ?
I am using the UK as a benchmark here.
If the Law Courts accept that minors may not be legally responsible for their actions in the eyes of the law, should we as referees not have a similar approach with the youngsters in the game?
As referees, we have to try, convict and sentence on offences within seconds, should we be judging eight or nine year olds by the same standards we apply to adults?
just a thought to throw out there......
At what age do young footballers become 'Legally Responsible" ?
I am using the UK as a benchmark here.
If the Law Courts accept that minors may not be legally responsible for their actions in the eyes of the law, should we as referees not have a similar approach with the youngsters in the game?
As referees, we have to try, convict and sentence on offences within seconds, should we be judging eight or nine year olds by the same standards we apply to adults?
just a thought to throw out there......
Reffariiii
RefChat Addict
I think this thread is getting very long and repetitive by now, so I will make my final submissions in this post!
In regards to your point about the Courts (I am a trainee barrister!) the age that the players would be liable is not of any concern to a referee. Strictly speaking, the only 'laws' that are of importance to a referee is are the Laws of The Game (severe violent conduct etc can/should be reported to the police, but putting instances like that aside) we are the enforces of the Laws of The Game, and as they stand at the moment, sanctions do not differ with ages. A red card tackle is just as damaging at u8 as it is in open age.
Your research in regards to your e-mails will make for very interesting reading and I'm sure it will help you a lot with your coaching, but what you need to remember is that the people you have contacted are not necessarily involved with refereeing, and therefor their opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt whilst refereeing.
I agree with you, the Laws were drawn up with open age football in mind, and they may well need to be altered for junior football, but at the moment, they are not. The Laws are there to be applied by the referee, not to be adjusted for the match. Personally, I believe it makes more damage if you refrain from correctly sanctioning a player at a young age.
Coaching is to be doen by coaches and parents. They have much more contact time with the players and the players have much more respect for them. If you think about it, how often is a referee going to see a player in a season? Not that often. Referees need to set the standard by refereeing according to the Laws, and it is then up to the coaches to coach the players in response to that.
If a player commits a red card tackle in 3 matches after each other, and no referee sends him off, it has much less effect than if the referee would have sent him off in the first match.
I can understand your viewpoint, but I'm afraid it is not the way to do it.
In regards to your point about the Courts (I am a trainee barrister!) the age that the players would be liable is not of any concern to a referee. Strictly speaking, the only 'laws' that are of importance to a referee is are the Laws of The Game (severe violent conduct etc can/should be reported to the police, but putting instances like that aside) we are the enforces of the Laws of The Game, and as they stand at the moment, sanctions do not differ with ages. A red card tackle is just as damaging at u8 as it is in open age.
Your research in regards to your e-mails will make for very interesting reading and I'm sure it will help you a lot with your coaching, but what you need to remember is that the people you have contacted are not necessarily involved with refereeing, and therefor their opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt whilst refereeing.
I agree with you, the Laws were drawn up with open age football in mind, and they may well need to be altered for junior football, but at the moment, they are not. The Laws are there to be applied by the referee, not to be adjusted for the match. Personally, I believe it makes more damage if you refrain from correctly sanctioning a player at a young age.
Coaching is to be doen by coaches and parents. They have much more contact time with the players and the players have much more respect for them. If you think about it, how often is a referee going to see a player in a season? Not that often. Referees need to set the standard by refereeing according to the Laws, and it is then up to the coaches to coach the players in response to that.
If a player commits a red card tackle in 3 matches after each other, and no referee sends him off, it has much less effect than if the referee would have sent him off in the first match.
I can understand your viewpoint, but I'm afraid it is not the way to do it.
MattyontheWhistle
RefChat Addict
In response, I am asking those people to get an informed opinion on the way a child learns in general not simply about refereeing.I am giving them the LOTG as an example as I need to know the most effective way to teach them to a child.
Secondly, I think things are probably different here, especially with the Juniors. From 8 yrs old and up, it is the responsibility of the home team to provide a CBR for the match, so last season, all my boys' home games were covered by the same two referees with the exception of one match.
The same two referees were used the previous season, before I was coaching them - and the lads were surprised when I told them they had to call them 'Ref', 'Sir' or 'Mr. Browne' and not 'Phil' or 'Callum' like they had previously.
We do have a modified game for juniors here, the pitch markings, distance to retreat for a restart and one I hate - having to retreat to half way when the opposition has a goal kick!
So from age 5/6 they play 'Mini Soccer' which is 5 a side, with no goalkeepers, small goals and a pitch that has just a half way line marked, then each year they progress on to bigger pitches/more players until they reach 11 years old, where they are on a properly marked pitch, albeit half-size, and playing 9-a-side.
For example, at 6 years old there is no offside, at 7 years old they are penalised for obvious 'Goal Hanging' and at 8 years old they have a rudimentary version of offside.
8 years old is also the age when competitive games are played against other clubs in a league system, everything below that is played within the club without a league being kept.
At CBR level, and on the course which is only four hours long including the test, we are told that 'cards should never be needed with juniors, unless it is a serious offence obviously against another player'. Which is interpreted as Violent Conduct or SFP.
Secondly, I think things are probably different here, especially with the Juniors. From 8 yrs old and up, it is the responsibility of the home team to provide a CBR for the match, so last season, all my boys' home games were covered by the same two referees with the exception of one match.
The same two referees were used the previous season, before I was coaching them - and the lads were surprised when I told them they had to call them 'Ref', 'Sir' or 'Mr. Browne' and not 'Phil' or 'Callum' like they had previously.
We do have a modified game for juniors here, the pitch markings, distance to retreat for a restart and one I hate - having to retreat to half way when the opposition has a goal kick!
So from age 5/6 they play 'Mini Soccer' which is 5 a side, with no goalkeepers, small goals and a pitch that has just a half way line marked, then each year they progress on to bigger pitches/more players until they reach 11 years old, where they are on a properly marked pitch, albeit half-size, and playing 9-a-side.
For example, at 6 years old there is no offside, at 7 years old they are penalised for obvious 'Goal Hanging' and at 8 years old they have a rudimentary version of offside.
8 years old is also the age when competitive games are played against other clubs in a league system, everything below that is played within the club without a league being kept.
At CBR level, and on the course which is only four hours long including the test, we are told that 'cards should never be needed with juniors, unless it is a serious offence obviously against another player'. Which is interpreted as Violent Conduct or SFP.
I had a U10s match this morning, and I didn't treat it like a older age match. If I pulled up every foul throw, as soon as I give a throw, I may as well hold my hand up the opposite way and give it to the opposition. No matter how many times you try to tell them how to do it, at that young age, 9/10 throw ins are foul throws, so at that age you can't pull up the things like foul throws. Also, in my league, U9s and U10s follow mini soccer rules, so there are no offsides!
With reference to Jojo's post, you obviously need to take into account the level of play when you make decisions as to whether something is worth calling or not but when it comes to sending off offences, those are pretty obvious and must be called.
My final point to Matty is that I would agree that we must needs explain the law to the child in question before we show the card but that does not, nor should it, mean that we don't show the card thereafter. Learning is done best when doing and so children will learn best what the laws of the game entail when made to 'do' them. By that, obviously, I mean that we force them to live the consequences of their actions so as to teach them best.
My final point to Matty is that I would agree that we must needs explain the law to the child in question before we show the card but that does not, nor should it, mean that we don't show the card thereafter. Learning is done best when doing and so children will learn best what the laws of the game entail when made to 'do' them. By that, obviously, I mean that we force them to live the consequences of their actions so as to teach them best.
MattyontheWhistle
RefChat Addict
I agree, I am simply saying that a straight red card for a first offence is not the best way. Award the FK or Pen, explain why it was a foul and that it should be a sending off under the Law, but give him another chance.
THis is being born out in the responses from my emails I sent out to people who work with children of this age.A couple of people have called me to discuss things as well.
One discussion, using a DOGSO tackle as an example:
An 8 or 9 year old's perception of the Universe around him is very small and centred on self. If an opponent running at goal with the ball appears, the 8 or 9 year old's mind will simply think "Ball! I want it, I 'll get it!" and attempt to tackle, with the rest of the pitch and players, positions etc not in his field of perception ('tunnel vision'), and with no capacity to consider what will happen if he doesn't get the ball, or what he would do if he did get the ball. A 10, 11, 12 year old will have a much wider field of perception, which includes action/consequence and probably think "Attacker, I've got to stop him shooting" and will react differently because the decision-making process is better developed.
An older child, or youth or senior player will be able to comprehend that he his being red-carded for something he did, it would be his fault he mis-timed the tackle. An 8 or 9 year old would look at you and think 'it wasn't my fault, he moved the ball'.
the younger child simply doesn't have the capacity to judge a situation and the consequences of his actions to make a 'good decision'. In fact 'decision' is probably the wrong word to use, as children of this age have not developed a 'decision-making process' yet, and will rely more on instinct and reaction. Punishing not only the child, but also the whole team by sending him off will not help the child see his actions within the 'bigger picture' and he will simplify things to a level he understands - "Ball, near my goal, if I tackle him I'll get punished".
Another response:
The ramifications of the sending off can also be severe on a social level. He gets sent off, his team lose the game. Who are his team mates going to blame for the defeat? The offender probably won't yet have the 'tools' to be able to process the sudden, negative peer reactions.
Coach may step in and diffuse the situation by blaming the ref, becuase the kids can externalise 'fault' very easily, and we drop down the ladder of 'grown-ups who deserve our respect' in the kids' perception of the world.
A softer approach, with an admonition, and perhaps a 'sin bin' or subsitution would be the the most effective approach - making a child sit and watch his mates, for a time, doing something he really wants to join in with, would be far more effective than simply not allowing him to play again that match. In most junior situations, if a child gets sent off, with no further chance to partake, it wouldn't surprise me if his parents took him straight home, or to McD's to cheer him up. He'll have forgotten all about it by lunchtime.
Like the earlier post above with the foul throws, at this age, many kids simply do not have the physical ability to correctly perform a throw in. And until their physical development and coordination has reached a point where they can, it doesn't help THEM to learn the correct technique by punishing them every time. Punishing the foul throw won't help them develop physically to a point where they are able to correctly perform the task, nature will do that.
(On foul throws, I had a 9 yr old in my u 10s team once, who was very small for his age, and was 'built' out of proportion. We play with a Size4 ball. His arms were not long enough to be able to stand and hold the ball above his head - it was physically impossible for him to bring the ball from behind the head when taking a throw. He would grow and develop a physical frame that would allow it eventually, but should I have banned him from taking throw-ins for the team?)
While i fully agree it is 'not our job' to teach, but to apply the laws, I do think that in the case of young children, there is a collective responsibility among ALL the adults involved in their development, and as a juniors referee, we take on and accept a large chunk of that responsibility. Part of that responsibility is surely to understand the physical, mental and social abilities of the age group we are dealing with and to act accordingly.
In many ways, officiating at Junior level is much harder that seniors, because we perceive the world so very differently from children. If you know a junior coach, ask him if you could come to training one day, then during one of the SSG practise games, just sit in the middle of the pitch so that your eyes are at the same level as the players - look at the game as an eight year old sees it.
It is very different to the game we see from standing at 5' 10" tall.
"It takes a whole village to raise a child" is the phrase that keeps coming to mind for me. While it may not be 'our job' it is certainly our responsibility to try to nurture and encourage before we resort to punishment.
Reffariiii
RefChat Addict
Whilst I accept your interest and understanding of child psychology, most do not have the same. Further more, I do not feel it is in the reemit of a referee to weigh up how the child will react to the sanction (apart from ordinary football practice).
MattyontheWhistle
RefChat Addict
Which is where I think, we agree to differ. I don't believe, when it comes to the children, we are simply a 'referee'. For the period of time in which we are in control of the game, we are responsible for the children involved in the game as well. I believe that responsibility goes much deeper than simply applying LOTG and the sanctions within.
I am of the mind that there should be official modified Laws and sanctions for junior age groups, in the same way there are for many other sports here. My two children play Hockey in winter - one plays 'Funsticks' and the older one plays 'Mini Sticks'. They will be 12 years old before they progress to playing the full game, but for now, the modified versions of the game are giving them the fundamental skills required to progress later on. In summer they play Flippaball, a junior version of water polo, where they are allowed to stand on the bottom of the pool, and 'run' along the bottom unless they have the ball. Also available for them are Ripper Rugby and Touch Rugby, Garden Cricket, Volleyball (where they are allowed to catch and throw the ball). All these 'mini' versions of the game are developed, and run by the national body responsible for the game.
It can't be coincidence that in the sports with a history of age-appropriate versions of the game, New Zealand out-performs most other countries at the senior/international level when size and population are taken into account. Imagine, if Britain won the same number of Olympic per capita that NZ did in the Olympics?
Yet, in Football, which is the biggest participation sport in the country, and the fastest growing sport nationwide, they are sadly lacking at the top level, although there is some quality starting to come through with youngsters like Reid at West Ham, Fenton at the Pheonix and a few others.
I haven't read any of the above posts - but I tread very carefully when asking managers to substitute. Never did it when I did youth football years ago, and I certainly wouldn't do it at OA. Although I nearly never booked someone at Youth level, if a sending off offence is committed, it's only fair to stick to the LOTG. You need to be consistent... Hypothetically speaking, if a player later on in the game punches and kicks someone, are you not going to send them off? If you do (which is a must) then it's unfair - because you didn't send the player off earlier!
MattyontheWhistle
RefChat Addict
If a player punches and kicks someone, it's a straight red, whenever it happens.