I've seen it a few times and i saw it as yellow for a cynical trip. VC and SFP did not even cross my mind.
Arsenal v Swansea
- Thread starter svenny76
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I've seen it a few times and i saw it as yellow for a cynical trip. VC and SFP did not even cross my mind.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
If you consider that to be VC then you must be racking up the red cards on your own games......
It's a trip, nothing more, nothing less.
2nd String Ref
Member
A yellow for mine.
I can't see it's SFP/excessive force/brutality. Breaking up promising attack - yes, reckless - yes.
You see something like this every week when it's tight at the end. An intentional foul to stop an attack, either via a trip, shirt pull, barge or push.
I can't see it's SFP/excessive force/brutality. Breaking up promising attack - yes, reckless - yes.
You see something like this every week when it's tight at the end. An intentional foul to stop an attack, either via a trip, shirt pull, barge or push.
Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
I can see both sides of the argument but I'm leaning towards red. As I see it, it's more than just a trip. If you want to trip a player running at the speed this one was, all you need is a slight touch on the side of the player's foot or ankle. Instead, Xhaka has swung his leg with considerable force, straight at a point halfway up the player's shin.
Although I'm not 100% sure the force used was excessive enough to make it an indisputable red card (if it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion) I would still say it exceeded the force necessary just to trip the opponent. To me, that makes it closer to the SFP definition of a player "who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind [...] with excessive force," than it does to the cautionable offence where a player simply "commits a foul or handles the ball to interfere with or stop a promising attack."
Although I'm not 100% sure the force used was excessive enough to make it an indisputable red card (if it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion) I would still say it exceeded the force necessary just to trip the opponent. To me, that makes it closer to the SFP definition of a player "who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind [...] with excessive force," than it does to the cautionable offence where a player simply "commits a foul or handles the ball to interfere with or stop a promising attack."
The argument seems to have crystallised into kick vs trip.
I think the speed with which Xhaka moves his left foot is leading some observers to conclude that there was more force involved than there actually was. The attacker's left leg barely moves as a result of the impact - no more than if Xhaka had clipped his ankle.
Does it look like Xhaka is trying to hurt the attacker (kick) or bring him down (trip)? I think it's the latter.
What's interesting is that even with the benefit of replays a bunch of referees can't agree on this incident
I think the speed with which Xhaka moves his left foot is leading some observers to conclude that there was more force involved than there actually was. The attacker's left leg barely moves as a result of the impact - no more than if Xhaka had clipped his ankle.
Does it look like Xhaka is trying to hurt the attacker (kick) or bring him down (trip)? I think it's the latter.
What's interesting is that even with the benefit of replays a bunch of referees can't agree on this incident
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
Its not a trip, its a kick.
deusex
RefChat Addict
In football, a trip is a kick 95% of the time!!!
A kick itself just cannot be a red card every time, do not confuse it with a punch.
I kick people EVERY time I play beacuse I'm sh*t and can't defend. I am genuinely trying to get a toe on the ball but sometimes get the players shin or foot instead.
These are free kicks nothing more.
For a kick to be a red it has to have a certain amount of force OR be high enough to be dangerous IMO.
The challenge in the OP is an easy caution because it was so cynical but the danger to the player was almost non existent. It was an ankle tap!!! If a defender has slid in with one of those take the man AND the ball tackles noone would be calling for a red and they are MUCH more dangerous.
Also no attempt to play the ball doesn't equal a red. As said, every shirt pull would be a red card
A kick itself just cannot be a red card every time, do not confuse it with a punch.
I kick people EVERY time I play beacuse I'm sh*t and can't defend. I am genuinely trying to get a toe on the ball but sometimes get the players shin or foot instead.
These are free kicks nothing more.
For a kick to be a red it has to have a certain amount of force OR be high enough to be dangerous IMO.
The challenge in the OP is an easy caution because it was so cynical but the danger to the player was almost non existent. It was an ankle tap!!! If a defender has slid in with one of those take the man AND the ball tackles noone would be calling for a red and they are MUCH more dangerous.
Also no attempt to play the ball doesn't equal a red. As said, every shirt pull would be a red card
Dermot Gallagher was interviewed on Sky today about this. He says his initial view was caution, but then the more he look at it the more he thought red due to the fact that the ball wasn't playable.
It wasn't a challenge for the ball, rather was a nasty, premeditated kick, the only intention of which was to bring down the player. It also forced the player off through injury, and it just doesn't sit comfortably that a player should get away with this in this day and age. If this was in somewhere like Italy or Spain there wouldn't even be any debate about it, and any referee not sending off would be castigated for it.
It wasn't a challenge for the ball, rather was a nasty, premeditated kick, the only intention of which was to bring down the player. It also forced the player off through injury, and it just doesn't sit comfortably that a player should get away with this in this day and age. If this was in somewhere like Italy or Spain there wouldn't even be any debate about it, and any referee not sending off would be castigated for it.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Since when did we punish the consequence of a challenge rather than the challenge itself?
It was a trip.....a simple trip.
I agree with this assessment of Xhaka's intent.
Dermot Gallagher said:
And once again I would agree. But intentionally bringing an opponent down, however cynical or nasty, is not on its own a red card however much we might want it to be.
The view that it was a red card for violent conduct is a coherent position. I don't agree with that view of the incident but it at least has the law correct. But the view that it was a red card 'because he had no intention of playing the ball' or because 'the ball wasn't playable' or 'it wasn't a challenge for the ball' has absolutely no basis in law.
I think that rightly or wrongly, it would seem to come down to if we consider it a kick or just a trip.
I don't think there's anyone who would argue that there are many situations where a trip can be considered VC - so in that case, it's only the context that even makes it yellow. And conversely, if you consider it a kick, then given the distance from the ball, it's pretty easy to argue that it's effectively an off-the-ball incident. And I don't think you'd find many referees who would want to keep a player on the pitch for an off-the-ball kick of an opponent's shin!
What a strange distinction...
I don't think there's anyone who would argue that there are many situations where a trip can be considered VC - so in that case, it's only the context that even makes it yellow. And conversely, if you consider it a kick, then given the distance from the ball, it's pretty easy to argue that it's effectively an off-the-ball incident. And I don't think you'd find many referees who would want to keep a player on the pitch for an off-the-ball kick of an opponent's shin!
What a strange distinction...
deusex
RefChat Addict
Kicking/tripping a player who has possession of the ball makes "off the ball incident" a pretty hard sell....
Had the ball not been involved then the player could not argue it was a simple tactical foul and it would become an act of pure aggression and a clear red.
This is not an off the ball incident
But he's not attempting to tackle the ball, he's attempting to kick the player with the ball nowhere near being in range.
That's surely a misunderstanding about how DOGSO in the penalty area is now judged. Now this should have been a red (Nasri was out a long time):
and this was - a bit more obvious:
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
There isn't even a hint of a red card in Xhaka's challenge!
those of you arguing for a red card here must give out half a dozen red cards a game - and no yellows for tripping or kicking an opponent!
If this is a red card, then so is every single tactical trip. And it clearly isn't.
There was little force used - in fact it was probably about the minimal force used to trip somebody over.
It was a kick - well of course it was. Because challenges are made with the feet. It would be a lot more serious if he dived and grabbed his leg with his hand!
But it was a kick with little force that tripped the player over. Nothing more.
Deliberately, yes - but that's not a red card.
Many reckless tackles have no attempt for the ball. Probably most - and almost all of them are a lot harder than this one was.
There's simply no argument for a red. It's a yellow, nothing more. Not endangering the safety of an opponent, and certainly not excessive force.
If the amount of force here was excessive then the game would have to be abandoned from the other 12 red cards given out.
For those arguing for a red card here - it would seem that you simply don't believe it's possible to caution a player for a cynical trip that breaks up an attack. No such thing. You've never done it yourself and argued the referee is wrong every time you've seen it.
Correct?
those of you arguing for a red card here must give out half a dozen red cards a game - and no yellows for tripping or kicking an opponent!
If this is a red card, then so is every single tactical trip. And it clearly isn't.
There was little force used - in fact it was probably about the minimal force used to trip somebody over.
It was a kick - well of course it was. Because challenges are made with the feet. It would be a lot more serious if he dived and grabbed his leg with his hand!
But it was a kick with little force that tripped the player over. Nothing more.
Deliberately, yes - but that's not a red card.
Many reckless tackles have no attempt for the ball. Probably most - and almost all of them are a lot harder than this one was.
There's simply no argument for a red. It's a yellow, nothing more. Not endangering the safety of an opponent, and certainly not excessive force.
If the amount of force here was excessive then the game would have to be abandoned from the other 12 red cards given out.
For those arguing for a red card here - it would seem that you simply don't believe it's possible to caution a player for a cynical trip that breaks up an attack. No such thing. You've never done it yourself and argued the referee is wrong every time you've seen it.
Correct?
That would describe every other late tackle in the history of the game.
Given what the player is trying to do I think it's clear it's a 'trip', not a 'kick' - but even if it changes to a kick....don't see how that suddenly makes it a red card.
The point I was trying to make in that part of the post was that a trip cannot be VC (surely?), wheras a kick does at least open up that possibility.
For me this is as obvious a yellow card challenge as you'll find. I can only guess Jon Moss and his assistant saw a scythe in real time because there was a hint of that in some replays. Excessive force is the salient criterion for SFP, but I gather that the FA has begun extending it to certain dangerous types of tackle that must now be seen as worthy of dismissal at any intensity (e.g. leading with studs or scissor movement). It is my view that playing distance can affect how reckless a challenge is, but not introduce excessive force.
Nevertheless, I am glad such a frank discussion has been opened because it encourages referees not to assign standard punishments to challenges that should be assessed on an individual basis.
Two other points as an Arsenal fan:
1) More naivety on display here: I can think of managers who would probably coach their players to perfect the 'yellow card technique' for exactly these situations.
2) I think there is an inevitable tendency for referees of all levels to punish move severely a tackle that is unusual for the team in question, although in Xhaka's case it's more common!
Nevertheless, I am glad such a frank discussion has been opened because it encourages referees not to assign standard punishments to challenges that should be assessed on an individual basis.
Two other points as an Arsenal fan:
1) More naivety on display here: I can think of managers who would probably coach their players to perfect the 'yellow card technique' for exactly these situations.
2) I think there is an inevitable tendency for referees of all levels to punish move severely a tackle that is unusual for the team in question, although in Xhaka's case it's more common!