VAR bias (/One way)

[one]

VAR is in the LOTG now so I guess we can talk about it under the LOTG banner.

VAR is used for Penalties, Red cards, Goal/No goal and Mistaken identity. The latter two being primarily factual and the first two opinion.

Having seen and read about many VAR review decision changes for opinion based reviews since it was introduced, I can't think of any decision that was a 'downgrade'. That is, a red card that was rescinded to a yellow/no card or a penalty that was rescinded. Any opinion VAR incident I can think of results in a penalty being given or a player being sent off.

The thought came to me when Roma said if VAR was used they would have beat Liverpool. They had a penalty given late in the game for handball which wasn't one (against Ragnar Klavan), very unlikely for VAR to have overturned that. However the handball penalty claim earlier (against Trent Alexander-Arnold) which was not given would have likely been overturned.

I am sure someone can come here and point to some VAR 'downgrading' but the stats (if there are any) would be very lopsided.

This for me is an unseen VAR bias that needs to be looked at where VARs are more concerned with increasing punishments and not enough with reducing it.

 

[bloovee]

I think we can add Manchester City to teams thinking that with VAR they might have beaten Liverpool in the CL. And played a dozen EPL games finishing against ten men (and the Wigan FA cup defeat). Just saying.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

I think we can add Manchester City to teams thinking that with VAR they might have beaten Liverpool in the CL. And played a dozen EPL games finishing against ten men (and the Wigan FA cup defeat). Just saying.

Maybe these half blind VARs are the same ones ensuring City haven’t breached FFP rules too?

 

[cwyeary]

Having seen and read about many VAR review decision changes for opinion based reviews since it was introduced, I can't think of any decision that was a 'downgrade'.

Not a single one? I can think of at least a dozen cases in MLS where a red was overturned to a yellow or a PK overturned. Then throw in Italy and Germany plus all of the Cup Competitions and you're probably over 50 cases.

In my opinion, the bias in the VAR system is more goals taken away then given. Very soft fouls by the attacking team in the build-up have led to goals being ruled out, while a similarly soft foul by the defending team will not lead to a PK given. A offside decision not given will almost always been seen after a goal to rule it out AND an offside flag that goes up when it shouldn't will also lead to fewer goals if the whistle went.

 

[one]

Not a single one? I can think of at least a dozen cases in MLS where a red was overturned to a yellow or a PK overturned. Then throw in Italy and Germany plus all of the Cup Competitions and you're probably over 50 cases.

In my opinion, the bias in the VAR system is more goals taken away then given. Very soft fouls by the attacking team in the build-up have led to goals being ruled out, while a similarly soft foul by the defending team will not lead to a PK given. A offside decision not given will almost always been seen after a goal to rule it out AND an offside flag that goes up when it shouldn't will also lead to fewer goals if the whistle went.

Tend to agree with plenty of goals and pens being reversed based on an earlier incident later deemed a foul/offside. However I also see those as an 'upgrade' of an offence also. From a no offence to an offence, that is the actual decision that VAR changes. The pen and goal afterwards are just byproducts.

Reds being changed to yellow, I take your word for it in MLS but I don't know of any in A-League. Same with an actual penalty being overturned because VAR deemed it was not a foul.

 

[alexgr]

Same with an actual penalty being overturned because VAR deemed it was not a foul.

There was one recently MLS that was given as simulation, then VAR overturned it and gave a penalty. Toledo was the referee, can’t rememeber the match

 

[one]

There was one recently MLS that was given as simulation, then VAR overturned it and gave a penalty. Toledo was the referee, can’t rememeber the match

That just confirms the point i was making. There will be a lot more of those than the other way around.

 

[cwyeary]

Here's an example of each that comes to mind.

PK being reversed

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...city-vs-new-york-city-fc/details/video/145064

And here's a red overturned to yellow

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...os-angeles-football-club/details/video/148243

Of course you are correct that the number of "upgrades" outnumber the "downgrades" by quite a margin. However, that's as much an impact of how we referee a game. If we aren't 100% sure then we generally give the safer option which is a yellow card or no PK. This means the error of not giving a PK that should have been given will always outnumber the error of giving a PK that shouldn't have been given. Same goes for red and yellows. A lot of yellows should be reds [see Manchester City this year...]. Very few reds should be yellows.

 

[Big Cat]

Here's an example of each that comes to mind.

PK being reversed

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...city-vs-new-york-city-fc/details/video/145064

And here's a red overturned to yellow

https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...os-angeles-football-club/details/video/148243

Of course you are correct that the number of "upgrades" outnumber the "downgrades" by quite a margin. However, that's as much an impact of how we referee a game. If we aren't 100% sure then we generally give the safer option which is a yellow card or no PK. This means the error of not giving a PK that should have been given will always outnumber the error of giving a PK that shouldn't have been given. Same goes for red and yellows. A lot of yellows should be reds [see Manchester City this year...]. Very few reds should be yellows.

Oh no.....
Now for the entirely alternative debate
Did the VAR process get these reversals right?
Not for me
And therein, two controversial decisions are made all the more controversial by the VAR process...sigh

 

[cwyeary]

Oh no.....
Now for the entirely alternative debate
Did the VAR process get these reversals right?
Not for me
And therein, two controversial decisions are made all the more controversial by the VAR process...sigh

The first one was correctly overturned. What that clip didn't show well was the efficiency of VAR in MLS. Geiger was over at the monitor for about 15 seconds and only needed to look at the clip once before making a decision.

The second one was interesting. You had SFP given in the 1st minute of a match. Does VAR get involved if that was the 70th minute? Maybe not. [Of course, when an offense occurs in a match shouldn't matter, but you know human nature and all of that...]

 

[one]

Of course you are correct that the number of "upgrades" outnumber the "downgrades" by quite a margin. However, that's as much an impact of how we referee a game. If we aren't 100% sure then we generally give the safer option which is a yellow card or no PK. This means the error of not giving a PK that should have been given will always outnumber the error of giving a PK that shouldn't have been given. Same goes for red and yellows. A lot of yellows should be reds [see Manchester City this year...]. Very few reds should be yellows.

Good theory. It makes sense. But at the end of the day, its just a theory just like mine

 

[Big Cat]

The first one was correctly overturned. What that clip didn't show well was the efficiency of VAR in MLS. Geiger was over at the monitor for about 15 seconds and only needed to look at the clip once before making a decision.

The second one was interesting. You had SFP given in the 1st minute of a match. Does VAR get involved if that was the 70th minute? Maybe not. [Of course, when an offense occurs in a match shouldn't matter, but you know human nature and all of that...]

My point being, everyone sort of accepts the referee's two decisions on the FOP, especially when they're difficult calls like these two. Once they're reviewed, any disagreement becomes all the more contentious. More importantly, I want the immediacy of a penalty decision or goal so I can go mental one way or the other. I don't want this moment to be diluted over several minutes by some flawed, boring process

 

[JamesL]

Lazio v inter. Penalty awarded by OFR for HB. Over ruled on review, correctly.

 

[zarathustra]

I think we can add Manchester City to teams thinking that with VAR they might have beaten Liverpool in the CL. And played a dozen EPL games finishing against ten men (and the Wigan FA cup defeat). Just saying.

What about the play off final where you beat Gillingham on penalties after Mark Halsey awarded an extra 10 minutes which allowed you to equalise?

 

[cwyeary]

Last night in MLS - Atlanta player sent off for SFP and overturned to a yellow.