Rolling subs - should there be a limit?

[Yampy]

If a player's injured he can sit down and wait for play to stop, ask permission to leave the pitch for treatment or struggle on.

Ask for treatment, receive treatment and waste more time than a substitution would have in the first place?
Struggle on, cause more physical damage because you don't think he's genuine and the manager is 'trying to pull a fast one'?
Struggle on, and his team concede a goal because they're effectively playing with a man down?

Sorry but I don't accept that that is your role or responsibility to deny permission in these cases.

I'd be looking to deny permission only if a substitute was clearly not ready to enter the FOP, his kit or equipment wasn't correct, he was wearing jewellery, he tried to enter the FOP before the player had left or not at the halfway line.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Some referees seem to enjoy turning something very simple into something very complicated....

 

[PinnerPaul]

Have a Vets Cup Final where I am 4th Official and we discussed this "problem" at pre finals evening last Friday.

Given its a final, sub procedure will need to be followed to the letter, its roll on, roll off so the potential for "time wasting" is something we need to be aware of.

The other aspect to remember is the need to make sure you have the numbers of the 11 who are on the pitch at the end in the event of penalties. Subs at full time can't be trusted to stay on bench so the potential is there for confusion/skullduggery as well!

Still I'm sure the 4th official will have it all sorted ........oh wait!

 

[Cam]

Hi
We have this problem all the way over here in New Zealand but in any age group game even prem divisions we have rolling subs and no added time. So you can imagine some of the fights and agurements that can come from this. The only time they have striaght subs and additional time is at national competition. I do understand at the lower levels football isn't everything but surely at the top age group levels you would have straight subs.

 

[GraemeS]

Ask for treatment, receive treatment and waste more time than a substitution would have in the first place?
Struggle on, cause more physical damage because you don't think he's genuine and the manager is 'trying to pull a fast one'?
Struggle on, and his team concede a goal because they're effectively playing with a man down?

Sorry but I don't accept that that is your role or responsibility to deny permission in these cases.

I'd be looking to deny permission only if a substitute was clearly not ready to enter the FOP, his kit or equipment wasn't correct, he was wearing jewellery, he tried to enter the FOP before the player had left or not at the halfway line.

And I'm totally fine with that being the standards you apply. But those aren't FIFA-imposed standards, they're as much guidelines you've made up for your own use as my set of guidelines are. And again, in the absence of instructions telling me when I should and shouldn't give permission for a sub (and one that's been written with roll-on/roll-off in mind), I'm entitled to make my own judgements.

The referee's primary responsibility is of course player safety. But if there doesn't appear to be any obvious injury, your next responsibility is to fair play - and that's where this might come in. If a manager has a history of cycling his player round for tactical reasons, you'd be pretty unlucky to pick the one "real" injury to stamp your foot down on.

This isn't difficult, I'm confused why you're taking such an issue with me here? If a manager's taking the piss by making multiple tactical subs at consecutive stoppages rather than all at once (and this does happen), you have a responsibility to let his opponents play their game. And the easiest way to do that is just force him to slow his subs down a little - if he was really doing it for genuine reason, he'd make 3 swaps at once, there's no valid reason to make 3 subs in 3 consecutive breaks 1 min apart unless he's timewasting. Which would be a caution if a player did it...

 

[Yampy]

Issue? Not really but it seems to me as though you're trying to influence a game which doesn't need your input. It's simply a substitution procedure, manage it. It might get tedious but the coach is allowed to do because the law is new and not developed enough.

 

[Twinblade]

And I'm totally fine with that being the standards you apply. But those aren't FIFA-imposed standards, they're as much guidelines you've made up for your own use as my set of guidelines are. And again, in the absence of instructions telling me when I should and shouldn't give permission for a sub (and one that's been written with roll-on/roll-off in mind), I'm entitled to make my own judgements.

The referee's primary responsibility is of course player safety. But if there doesn't appear to be any obvious injury, your next responsibility is to fair play - and that's where this might come in. If a manager has a history of cycling his player round for tactical reasons, you'd be pretty unlucky to pick the one "real" injury to stamp your foot down on.

This isn't difficult, I'm confused why you're taking such an issue with me here? If a manager's taking the piss by making multiple tactical subs at consecutive stoppages rather than all at once (and this does happen), you have a responsibility to let his opponents play their game. And the easiest way to do that is just force him to slow his subs down a little - if he was really doing it for genuine reason, he'd make 3 swaps at once, there's no valid reason to make 3 subs in 3 consecutive breaks 1 min apart unless he's timewasting. Which would be a caution if a player did it...

I don't disagree with your approach, you are entitled to interpret the decision how you see fit. The league I officiate in we were told when the rolling subs rule was introduced that as a rule, unless the player went down injured and needed to come off we were not permitted to allow a team to make 2 changes in consecutive breaks and that there needed to be at least one break in play between each change. The teams were involved in this and were happy with this adopted approach.

As for the last point, the issue we have is that in the paid game this often happens as a tactic to slow play down, it isn't penalised so it is widely accepted at parks level. The only difference we have when policing it is that it isn't limited to 3 changes.

 

[RustyRef]

I don't disagree with your approach, you are entitled to interpret the decision how you see fit. The league I officiate in we were told when the rolling subs rule was introduced that as a rule, unless the player went down injured and needed to come off we were not permitted to allow a team to make 2 changes in consecutive breaks and that there needed to be at least one break in play between each change. The teams were involved in this and were happy with this adopted approach.

As for the last point, the issue we have is that in the paid game this often happens as a tactic to slow play down, it isn't penalised so it is widely accepted at parks level. The only difference we have when policing it is that it isn't limited to 3 changes.

Leagues are not allowed to provide advice on the application of the laws of the game, that is strictly prohibited. What they have told you there is totally incorrect in law.

If a league adopts repeated substitutions, and they are not obliged to do so, then law 3 still applies for substitutions. As a referee you cannot pick and choose when to accept or reject substitution requests, you just need to add the time on as necessary.

 

[GraemeS]

Leagues are not allowed to provide advice on the application of the laws of the game, that is strictly prohibited. What they have told you there is totally incorrect in law.

If a league adopts repeated substitutions, and they are not obliged to do so, then law 3 still applies for substitutions. As a referee you cannot pick and choose when to accept or reject substitution requests, you just need to add the time on as necessary.

Not to take this thread round in circles, but I think you're wrong there. The law specifies that the referee's permission or signal is required for a player to leave/enter the FOP and this is re-emphasised in the section on the substitution procedure. It gives no suggestion whatsoever telling us when we can or cannot give this permission.

Therefore it's logical to assume it's at the referee's discretion, which means if I decide to delay a sub because a manager is taking the piss, that's entirely my right as the referee.