A&H

red card offinabus story from another referee

K

Kent Ref

RefChat Addict
This story was told to me by another referee and this is what happened to him last week:

He blew for half time and the losing team were standing together. He went to his bag to get a drink and a player (who couldn't see the ref) said "this ref is a f***** u****** t***".

He then red carded him for Offinabus.

My question is IF, and it's a big IF, the player was totally unaware of the referee's presence was he trying to offend the referee or not?

In my many years of sending people off for offinabus it's because they have looked at me and said the words. I've never had this scenario.

Thanks.
 
A&H International
socal lurker said:
Where in Law 12 does it say that OFFINABUS involves an intent to offend?

R is certainly within the Laws to send off. (Depending on volume and tone, some referees might “not have heard” what was said.)
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My logic is for something to qualify for offensive it has to be aimed at somebody. If the referee is not there were they trying to offend him (to qualify as offensive)?
 
Hmm context though. If the same player has already been giving low level dissent, and is trying to goad teammates, I'd be more likely to sanction. If it's offhand and the match is otherwise tame then another story. It's a difficult case as a verbal warning doesn't really fly here - I don't think you can admit to hearing this and not sanction - and it's clearly RC language. So, I support the referee. If you want to play for 90 mins, don't swear at - or about - the ref.

If you don't sanction this - you are LAST WEEK'S REF!
 
Kent Ref said:
My logic is for something to qualify for offensive it has to be aimed at somebody. If the referee is not there were they trying to offend him (to qualify as offensive)?
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Its not a bad logic by any means but don't be stuck in a box by logic.
There are lots of offensive gestures/words can be used to indirectly offend and not be aimed specifically at someone.
 
santa sangria said:
Hmm context though. If the same player has already been giving low level dissent, and is trying to goad teammates, I'd be more likely to sanction. If it's offhand and the match is otherwise tame then another story. It's a difficult case as a verbal warning doesn't really fly here - I don't think you can admit to hearing this and not sanction - and it's clearly RC language. So, I support the referee. If you want to play for 90 mins, don't swear at - or about - the ref.

If you don't sanction this - you are LAST WEEK'S REF!
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Not that it matters this was the only disciplinary action of the game (adult mens).
 
Kent Ref said:
My logic is for something to qualify for offensive it has to be aimed at somebody. If the referee is not there were they trying to offend him (to qualify as offensive)?
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It’s an abusive/offensive comment, which on this occasion the referee happened to hear so could deal with.
A ploy I often used was to point out early on/before the game if there was a kiddies' playground close by, or kids playing in the park or watching the game, and to make it clear that O/I/A language and/or gestures would result in a dismissal.
Although not aimed at an individual, think about the goalkeeper 60 metres from active play shouting "What the f*** is going on, this is f****** s***!" after a quiet warning from the referee about language early on in the game.
I would see that as offensive language (although many referees ignore it or treat it as dissent - wrongly so)
 
Bit of an aside, but to avoid/prevent this, I always try and put my bag/half time drink well away (ideally on the other side of the pitch) from where the teams have their kit/bench etc. Also quite useful for the end of the game - stay on the pitch for handshakes etc. then go to. Collect my bag & drink which is away from the two teams before heading back to changing rooms. Just gives everyone a few minutes to calm down and any heat to dissipate
 
RefJef said:
Bit of an aside, but to avoid/prevent this, I always try and put my bag/half time drink well away (ideally on the other side of the pitch) from where the teams have their kit/bench etc. Also quite useful for the end of the game - stay on the pitch for handshakes etc. then go to. Collect my bag & drink which is away from the two teams before heading back to changing rooms. Just gives everyone a few minutes to calm down and any heat to dissipate
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Until someone nicks it, do that in London and it would be gone by half time.
 
I think in this situation I'd be tempted to have a laugh at the player's expense. Saying something like "I heard that" means he is going to get rinsed by his teammates and you probably won't get a peep out of him for the rest of the game.

Of course, if you are offended by the comment you can send off, just not a route I think I'd be going down personally.
 
ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
It’s an abusive/offensive comment, which on this occasion the referee happened to hear so could deal with.
A ploy I often used was to point out early on/before the game if there was a kiddies' playground close by, or kids playing in the park or watching the game, and to make it clear that O/I/A language and/or gestures would result in a dismissal.
Although not aimed at an individual, think about the goalkeeper 60 metres from active play shouting "What the f*** is going on, this is f****** s***!" after a quiet warning from the referee about language early on in the game.
I would see that as offensive language (although many referees ignore it or treat it as dissent - wrongly so)
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I’m not sure what to think of this stance. I personally don’t like swearing in games but lots of people aren’t bothered. they’ll happily swear in front of their own kids so won’t be bothered about a play ground. What’s offensive to one person isn’t offensive to others. I’m not sure a ref can tell A keeper he can’t swear at a team mate and then threaten cards.
 
Therealcjhill said:
I’m not sure what to think of this stance. I personally don’t like swearing in games but lots of people aren’t bothered. they’ll happily swear in front of their own kids so won’t be bothered about a play ground. What’s offensive to one person isn’t offensive to others. I’m not sure a ref can tell A keeper he can’t swear at a team mate and then threaten cards.
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Unfortunately many referees allow language to go unchecked, and the game has accepted it as being OK.
That’s a dereliction of duty, one good example being in my home county where the authorities have stopped football being played in two recreation grounds following complaints from residents with gardens adjacent to the ground. Visits were made to check their complaints and confirmed that unacceptable language was loud and unchecked.
If a player use words that would be unacceptable in a social, public or work setting, there's a benchmark. You have used "swearing" in your reply - I prefer the measure of whether the words used were offensive, abusive and/or insulting, and whilst the match referee has that decision to make they need to bear in mind who is in earshot and may be offended, insulted, or abused.
The language used in the OP example cedtainly meets those criteria.
 
ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
Unfortunately many referees allow language to go unchecked, and the game has accepted it as being OK.
That’s a dereliction of duty, one good example being in my home county where the authorities have stopped football being played in two recreation grounds following complaints from residents with gardens adjacent to the ground. Visits were made to check their complaints and confirmed that unacceptable language was loud and unchecked.
If a player use words that would be unacceptable in a social, public or work setting, there's a benchmark. You have used "swearing" in your reply - I prefer the measure of whether the words used were offensive, abusive and/or insulting, and whilst the match referee has that decision to make they need to bear in mind who is in earshot and may be offended, insulted, or abused.
The language used in the OP example cedtainly meets those criteria.
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I'm going to say that rests firmly at the feet of the teams/clubs involved, not with us as referees.

Back a day when it was foul and abusive maybe, but the game has always accepted levels of industrial language.
 
JamesL said:
I'm going to say that rests firmly at the feet of the teams/clubs involved, not with us as referees.

Back a day when it was foul and abusive maybe, but the game has always accepted levels of industrial language.
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"Industrial language" is a total minefield and was used to cover "Foul and abusive" with no action taken.
 
ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
Unfortunately many referees allow language to go unchecked, and the game has accepted it as being OK.
That’s a dereliction of duty, one good example being in my home county where the authorities have stopped football being played in two recreation grounds following complaints from residents with gardens adjacent to the ground. Visits were made to check their complaints and confirmed that unacceptable language was loud and unchecked.
If a player use words that would be unacceptable in a social, public or work setting, there's a benchmark. You have used "swearing" in your reply - I prefer the measure of whether the words used were offensive, abusive and/or insulting, and whilst the match referee has that decision to make they need to bear in mind who is in earshot and may be offended, insulted, or abused.
The language used in the OP example cedtainly meets those criteria.
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Totally agree with this BUT society has denigrated so much this is getting more and more common.
 
JamesL said:
I'm going to say that rests firmly at the feet of the teams/clubs involved, not with us as referees.

Back a day when it was foul and abusive maybe, but the game has always accepted levels of industrial language.
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And I am going to say it's become the norm because referees failed to deal with it, chose to ignore it, or pretended not to hear it.
It's far less common in other sports in England, and needs reining in.
We are seeing parents avoiding football matches when out with their young children, young players being shocked when disciplinary action is taken over language, and coaches using inappropriate language to referees whilst standing with young substitutes . . . all of which is unacceptable and needs management and sanctions by our community.
I first refereed in the era of "foul or abusive" (not "foul and abusive") and the comments in the OP report would have had me reaching for the red card back then.
I welcomed the change to O/I/A when it came, as it set out options, but many referees continued to use selective deafness as a soft option, bringing us to where we are now, sadly.
 
ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
And I am going to say it's become the norm because referees failed to deal with it, chose to ignore it, or pretended not to hear it.
It's far less common in other sports in England, and needs reining in.
We are seeing parents avoiding football matches when out with their young children, young players being shocked when disciplinary action is taken over language, and coaches using inappropriate language to referees whilst standing with young substitutes . . . all of which is unacceptable and needs management and sanctions by our community.
I first refereed in the era of "foul or abusive" (not "foul and abusive") and the comments in the OP report would have had me reaching for the red card back then.
I welcomed the change to O/I/A when it came, as it set out options, but many referees continued to use selective deafness as a soft option, bringing us to where we are now, sadly.
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Comments in the OP would have me reaching for red to btw as they are clearly offensive, designed to insult and are abusive.

My point is about general use of swear words.

They are becoming more and more accepted in society. I can't think many that I know that don't swear in every day use of language except my mum and a handful of other associates. And in the respect those people by significantly reducing the number of swear words I use myself.

At the end of the day they're just words and I think moving from foul  or abusive to OffInAbus represents that the use of swear words are permissible so long as not in an offinabus way.

Ultimately, teams don't just get turfed off. Its likely that they had received warnings from the landowner (Guessing local authority) before having their use of the land revoked. That's not referees problem. That rests squarely with the clubs it's not for referees to please the neighbours.
 
JamesL said:
Comments in the OP would have me reaching for red to btw as they are clearly offensive, designed to insult and are abusive.

My point is about general use of swear words.

They are becoming more and more accepted in society. I can't think many that I know that don't swear in every day use of language except my mum and a handful of other associates. And in the respect those people by significantly reducing the number of swear words I use myself.

At the end of the day they're just words and I think moving from foul  or abusive to OffInAbus represents that the use of swear words are permissible so long as not in an offinabus way.

Ultimately, teams don't just get turfed off. Its likely that they had received warnings from the landowner (Guessing local authority) before having their use of the land revoked. That's not referees problem. That rests squarely with the clubs it's not for referees to please the neighbours.
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Agree, society has changed and swearing is now much more common and accepted. When I first started working, close to 30 years ago, it was unheard of to hear someone swear in an office, these days I don't think there is a single day where I don't hear it.

A referee sending someone off for swearing, when it isn't aimed at anyone, is just going to look totally out of touch with reality. If there's a playground nearby then the players should be aware, or the letting authority need to crack down on it. As referees we apply the laws of the game, we aren't there as morality police.
 
JamesL said:
Comments in the OP would have me reaching for red to btw as they are clearly offensive, designed to insult and are abusive.

My point is about general use of swear words.

They are becoming more and more accepted in society. I can't think many that I know that don't swear in every day use of language except my mum and a handful of other associates. And in the respect those people by significantly reducing the number of swear words I use myself.

At the end of the day they're just words and I think moving from foul  or abusive to OffInAbus represents that the use of swear words are permissible so long as not in an offinabus way.

Ultimately, teams don't just get turfed off. Its likely that they had received warnings from the landowner (Guessing local authority) before having their use of the land revoked. That's not referees problem. That rests squarely with the clubs it's not for referees to please the neighbours.
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The neighbours complained to the police and the local authority because every Sunday morning included unacceptable language from over their back fence.
Had referees dealt with it appropriately the issue would not have escalated in the way it did, with no football allowed there for a protracted period.
My local Step 5/6 league has reminded match officials and observers about the need to deal with O/I/A language, with observers able to reduce the mark if a suitable approach is not evident.
As club marks are less important than previously that aspect becomes less of a disincentive to referees to act.
Although most players swear, some words are less acceptable than others in public places, and the stepped approach works well (warn, final warning with captain if apposite, dismiss)
 
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