A&H

Player commits 2 offences before showing cards

Just had my post-season review (a personal thing where I have recieved match footage, or made notes of incidents that have happened in games). One of the things I came across was within a mass-confrontation. Away teams player-manager comes running from the away dugout (situated halfway into the far half) to the opposite penalty area, to give me a load of grief (nothing of a caution), then goes onto push players, and square up to them, thinking he is now on UFC!

So in here he has committed 2, possibly 3 bookable offences:
- Entering the FOP without referees permission.
- Possible dissent.
- Aggressive attitude.

How would you go about dealing with this? Is it the most serious offence is punished, or would anyone go ahead and show the 2 yellows and whip the tomato out of the back pocket? On the day, I let it go because I was more focussed on the confrontation (3 players, fists swinging and a good amount of first aid treatment was needed!).
 
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Hi
Player manager is walking for entering FOP + Dissent or USB Acting in an aggressive manner. I would go with the latter as it is easier to justify in the sending off report plus I would throw in the words for good measure.. Two yellows plus the red.
Also what else went on by way of VC is not a reason for not dealing with it. The game can't have a player manager coming 50+ yards to get involved as described and not get sanctioned. If he was the manager he is still walking for acting in an irresponsible manner.
So I would deal with each situation in order. Instigator first followed by the series of offenders. He gets dealt with in due course.
 
A substitute player doing this is getting two yellows - one for entering the FOP, a second for AA (at least). Player manager lives under the same rules. I'd usually almost be looking for an excuse to give a dissent caution for anyone who's run that far to cause an argument, but you state that you didn't think anything he said was worth one, so that's your call! Also, I'm assuming nothing in the AA was bad enough to escalate it to VC.

First thing to do is to make sure that he doesn't sneak off back to the benches once he's got his pushes in. In terms of actually administering it, I'd be sure to give a bit of time between cards to make the point clear. Get his name etc first, then say something along the lines of "OK, so that's one caution for entering the field of play without permission" (point where he ran on from, raise card, lower card) "and a second yellow for your aggressive actions once you reached the incident" (point at the incident and/or do a pushing gesture, raise card, lower card) "which means that I'm sending you off for two cautionable offences." (Show red card, point to changing room). Keep things calm and make it very obvious to everyone else what's going on.

If he had committed VC instead of AA, you've got an argument for just showing a straight red and getting him off. But even then the most technically correct thing to do is first caution him for entering the FOP without permission and then follow that up with a straight red. But given what you've told us, I think only showing a straight red in this situation is asking for trouble if he appeals after.
 
Excellent post by @GraemeS on how to actually administer it - selling it will be important given it's an unusual refereeing decision and tensions are already high.
To echo others, give the first yellow, certainly. You decide if the aggression is worth a yellow or red. For me, my 'bar' on what constitutes VC will be much lower for somebody who shouldn't even be on the field. I'd agree in using that for the card over the dissent. Easier to justify to everybody there.
 
@WelshRef01 - Excellent idea for debate!

I slightly disagree with the answers given. My view - treat him in this instance as the team official rather than the player. Dismiss him straight away (no YC's) and report as misconduct. The FA will treat misconduct more seriously than a RC. Include in the report all of his actions - illegal entry, confronting you and then pushing other players.

However, it would be useful to come to a consensus decision in case it happens to any referee.
 
Think we had a very similar debate recently and no one could agree exactly.
I think the referee has to decide if he was acting in his capacity as the manager or substitute.
The question I would ask is that if you send him away in his capacity as a manager can you then stop him coming on as a substitute? I'd like to say yes and then It's an easier sell a round.
First thing to do is to make sure that he doesn't sneak off back to the benches once he's got his pushes in.
I am going to offer an alternative view here. If he is going to quietly go back to the dugout and cause me no more issues, until I get to him, let him go back. Just dont forget to deal with him. Keeping him hanging around unless ypu're dealing with him first could only lead to further misconduct so if he'll happily remove himself I'll accept it and deal with him as the manager in his specially designated area (i.e. technical area). This is then easy to sell that you are dealing with him in that capacity.
 
@WelshRef01 - Excellent idea for debate!

I slightly disagree with the answers given. My view - treat him in this instance as the team official rather than the player. Dismiss him straight away (no YC's) and report as misconduct. The FA will treat misconduct more seriously than a RC. Include in the report all of his actions - illegal entry, confronting you and then pushing other players.

However, it would be useful to come to a consensus decision in case it happens to any referee.
I wouldn't go for that approach personally. Firstly, if he's only been dismissed as the manager he would still be able to bring himself on as a substitute, which could cause further problems during the game. Secondly, although it's possible he might get a slightly more severe punishment if you reported it as misconduct instead, it also gives him the opportunity to ask for a personal hearing, which you would have to attend, which he doesn't get if you red card him. Lastly, any potential punishment he may get afterwards shouldn't influence your actions during the game - just deal with the situation as it presents itself and how you feel is most appropriate at the time.
 
@WelshRef01 - Excellent idea for debate!

I slightly disagree with the answers given. My view - treat him in this instance as the team official rather than the player. Dismiss him straight away (no YC's) and report as misconduct. The FA will treat misconduct more seriously than a RC. Include in the report all of his actions - illegal entry, confronting you and then pushing other players.

However, it would be useful to come to a consensus decision in case it happens to any referee.

How they treat the misconduct is none of your concern. Bear in mind that the FA have no obligation to take ANY action against a coach you've dismissed - whereas a player you dismiss MUST face a suspension under the LOTG.

also, dismiss him as the manager and there's an argument that he should still be able to come on as a sub - because in doing so he is no longer participating in the match as a manager. But dismiss him as a sub, and on the sideline it's still impossible to separate any behaviour from being a sub, so dealing with him as a sub covers both sides.

Think we had a very similar debate recently and no one could agree exactly.
I think the referee has to decide if he was acting in his capacity as the manager or substitute.
The question I would ask is that if you send him away in his capacity as a manager can you then stop him coming on as a substitute? I'd like to say yes and then It's an easier sell a round.

I am going to offer an alternative view here. If he is going to quietly go back to the dugout and cause me no more issues, until I get to him, let him go back. Just dont forget to deal with him. Keeping him hanging around unless ypu're dealing with him first could only lead to further misconduct so if he'll happily remove himself I'll accept it and deal with him as the manager in his specially designated area (i.e. technical area). This is then easy to sell that you are dealing with him in that capacity.

The first part of your post is actually very easy. If he is a substitute, deal with him as a substitute and show the cards. No argument, no defence. In fact, if he's a substitute then you have an obligation to deal with him under the LOTG. So breaches of the LOTG must result in a card.
Deal with him as a coach and there's no real repercussion.

And you have a substitute and/or coach who has run onto the field, abused you and assaulted players and you're happy to let them continue to participate in the match????


Really???????????
 
The comments about still allowing him to come on as a sub if you've dismissed him in his role as manager have caught my eye. I really don't think I'd allow that if I was the referee.

To flip it the other way, if you dismissed him as a sub would you still allow him to stand in the technical area and act as manager?

In either case, the dismissal requires them to leave the vicinity of the field. I wouldn't be allowing them to re-enter that in any capacity.
 
Hi
For me if he is listed as a substitute he gets treated as such with cards etc. Dissent from substitutes on the bench gets treated as a yellow card as does any red card offence. So having to be asked the question about returning as a player does not arise.
 
How they treat the misconduct is none of your concern. Bear in mind that the FA have no obligation to take ANY action against a coach you've dismissed - whereas a player you dismiss MUST face a suspension under the LOTG.

also, dismiss him as the manager and there's an argument that he should still be able to come on as a sub - because in doing so he is no longer participating in the match as a manager. But dismiss him as a sub, and on the sideline it's still impossible to separate any behaviour from being a sub, so dealing with him as a sub covers both sides.



The first part of your post is actually very easy. If he is a substitute, deal with him as a substitute and show the cards. No argument, no defence. In fact, if he's a substitute then you have an obligation to deal with him under the LOTG. So breaches of the LOTG must result in a card.
Deal with him as a coach and there's no real repercussion.

And you have a substitute and/or coach who has run onto the field, abused you and assaulted players and you're happy to let them continue to participate in the match????


Really???????????
I haven't said I would let him continue in the game. I personally would assume that if you send him away in his capacity as manager then naturally he can take no further part in the match in any capacity. He has been excluded from the immediate vicinity of the pitch so how is he then going to come on as a substitite seeing as that would bring him to the very place he has since been excluded from?
I can see from both points of view on this subject really and I think maybe something the ifab should consider setting out player/manager responsibilities/sanctions.
If you send him off as a player he is still free to be in the dugout as a manager next week unless the ban is extended to his role as a manager as well?
 
Interesting scenario, I think I'd deal with it as a substitute and go for two lemons or one and a cherry depending on the seriousness of the case.
Could create some interesting 'arguments' before play restarted!
 
This came up as an issue in a local supply league and the FA were asked for advice, which was something like this.

If a player manager commits an act that would see him cautioned or sent off had it been done on the field of play then the appropriate card should be used and he be dealt with as a player. If that card is red then he is removed from the technical area and can take no further part in the game. If it is yellow, so for example for dissent, he would be removed from the technical area but would still be able to enter the pitch as a substitute.

If the offence would not merit a card on the field of play, so for example refusing to stay inside the technical area, then he should be dealt with as a manager, removed from the technical area without a card being shown, but he would be permitted to come on as a substitute.

There is an example of that second scenario - Andy Hessenthaler, as player manager of Gillingham, was sent to the stands but later came on as a sub. Number 4 in this articel - http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...he-10-best-manager-sent-to-the-stands-moments
 
I wouldn't go for that approach personally. Firstly, if he's only been dismissed as the manager he would still be able to bring himself on as a substitute, which could cause further problems during the game. Secondly, although it's possible he might get a slightly more severe punishment if you reported it as misconduct instead, it also gives him the opportunity to ask for a personal hearing, which you would have to attend, which he doesn't get if you red card him. Lastly, any potential punishment he may get afterwards shouldn't influence your actions during the game - just deal with the situation as it presents itself and how you feel is most appropriate at the time.

Either route, I feel gets rid of him as a spectator or as manager so he does not get involved in the rest of the game.

The point about the personal hearing had been forgotten my me, so I think this is a good debate.

If we have somebody with connections, could we get either an answer from the FA or the RA about what is the correct solution?
 
Unless its clear an indiscretion is in his capacity as a manager only, I deal with him as a player/substitute. Requirements and rules for player/substitute sanctions are much more clear cut under the LotG and most competition rules which makes decision making easier.
 
Unless its clear an indiscretion is in his capacity as a manager only, I deal with him as a player/substitute. Requirements and rules for player/substitute sanctions are much more clear cut under the LotG and most competition rules which makes decision making easier.
I think this is a really smart way to deal with this situation. It's much easier, more clearly defined and it's easier to treat him as a player and communicate sanctions via red/yellow cards. You should be trying to do this wherever possible. There are only two good reasons to treat a player/manager as a player rather than a manager:

He's doing something manager is allowed to do that a substitute player wouldn't be.
He's committed a sanctionable offence that isn't covered by the LOTG section on cautions and dismissals (refusal to stay in the technical area etc.) This is the edge situation where you can dismiss him as a manager for a technical offence and then end up letting him back on the FOP as an unsanctioned player.

Any other situation, treat him as a sub and make your life easier.
 
Some very interesting responses!

I had spoken to a fellow referee (performs at the WPL level), and he had said similar to what @GraemeS had responded with the first time.
 
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