Offside/DOGSO/SPA

[Will_A]

Had this occur in my game on Saturday.
Step 6 game down in Cornwall and the AR for that side was BRAND new and never run the line before. Flag didn't go up, pre match instructions were to wait for the ball to be played by the attacker.

Red defender was already on a caution.

Bit of discussion with some colleagues about the following points:

1) do we think the attacker has committed an offside offence before he's brought down?
2) do we think this is DOGSO or SPA?
3) Given that the flag would go up had the attacker played the ball, could this be classed as either? There would never be a promising attack or OGSO as they'd be offside as soon as they play the ball anyway.

Link to clip below
https://gofile.io/d/EjJxYM

 

[es1]

oh wow good luck.

1 - No - he's neither played the ball or prevented the defender playing the ball
2 - No - as he is offside cant be either, but could be reckless/general unsporting if the scenario fits (not necessarily saying this is)
3 - No (though your question confuses me a bit!)

outcome has to be attacking free kick for me but an incredibly hard sell at any level.

what happened? did he get you over for a discussion or did he not do anything leading to a 2nd yellow?

 

[RefereeX]

I think we have to penalise the offence as it is committed before the player in an offside position has committed an offside offence, however it can't be SPA or DOGSO as that player in an offside position can not legally be the next player to touch the ball. Just an attacking free kick for me, but a tough sell all round, easier if you take your time to communicate with all parties though.

 

[Will_A]

I got nothing from the AR, it was his first game and didn't actually adjudge it to be offside.

Ended with a 2nd yellow for SPA which was accepted by all.

 

[Big Cat]

In a perfect world, determine from AR (run over and consult) if onside or offside. Assuming offside, DFK only
Really difficult one that however. I'd expect observer's expectations to be inconsistent, so you'd need the wind to be blowing in the right direction if you were observed regardless of your decision.
In the heat of the moment, I dunno what I would've done so good scenario to discuss

 

[es1]

I got nothing from the AR, it was his first game and didn't actually adjudge it to be offside.

Ended with a 2nd yellow for SPA which was accepted by all.

argh and i guess the club now know you/he got the offside wrong and therefore the red?

 

[bester]

Foul, and unsporting behaviour.

Good luck selling it as a second yellow after awarding an offside though.

Without the foul it's a situation where he should be flagging for offside well before the attacker gets to the ball as nobody else is getting there and it avoids potential challenge with the goalkeeper.

 

[Will_A]

argh and i guess the club now know you/he got the offside wrong and therefore the red?

Nah, had a chat in the bar afterwards and made clear the first offence was punished. They won't be savvy enough to figure out the yellow could have been avoided with a more experienced AR.

 

[RefereeX]

Nah, had a chat in the bar afterwards and made clear the first offence was punished. They won't be savvy enough to figure out the yellow could have been avoided with a more experienced AR.

Not until they read your post on here, anyway!

 

[RustyRef]

First question would be how on earth an AR is doing their first line on a step 6 game, that has dropped you right in it. But, if he doesn't think it is offside and doesn't flag, unless you were 100% sure that it was offside all you can do is penalise the foul. Once given it is a minimum of SPA, so as already on a caution he's walking.

 

[JamesL]

First question would be how on earth an AR is doing their first line on a step 6 game, that has dropped you right in it.

The lowest level of football, outside of cup finals, that you can operate as a NAR in Cornwall is step 6.
The step 7 leagues are run by CARs and level 5 referees.

 

[Will_A]

Opinion of the National Referee Manager for L4's is that there's no offside offence. The foul is cynical and should be punished with a caution regardless of any potential offside offence negating SPA.

 

[bester]

Opinion of the National Referee Manager for L4's is that there's no offside offence. The foul is cynical and should be punished with a caution regardless of any potential offside offence negating SPA.

A rare occasion I'm right.

 

[FirsFox40]

A rare occasion I'm right.

A stopped clock and all that…

 

[george.g]

What would the clarification in LOTG be regarding offside negating SPA? I understand why, but just want to have a good idea of it for myself

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

Opinion of the National Referee Manager for L4's is that there's no offside offence. The foul is cynical and should be punished with a caution regardless of any potential offside offence negating SPA.

Nice insight, I'm guessing because no offside offence has been committed yet and we cannot say whether he will commit one, the defender could get the ball and then be challenged etc etc

 

[Will_A]

What would the clarification in LOTG be regarding offside negating SPA? I understand why, but just want to have a good idea of it for myself

I don't think it's explicitly covered in law. However, the foul can't stop a promising attack if the attacking player can't legally play the ball.

 

[santa sangria]

I think it can’t be SPA or DOGSO.
It’s a DFK for the attackers.
If you really want to find a yellow card I think it’s a tough one. “Blatant holding” concept is maybe relevant here. I think no card is a much better outcome especially in this match context.

Great clip!

 

[RefereeX]

Opinion of the National Referee Manager for L4's is that there's no offside offence. The foul is cynical and should be punished with a caution regardless of any potential offside offence negating SPA.

I really disagree with this. Is that Ross Joyce's advice?

I agree that there's no offside offence, but it can only be punished as 'cynical' if it stops a promising attack. Given a complete lack of other attackers and the one that is there can't legally touch the ball, I don't see how there can be a promising attack. Like I'm well aware that Ross knows way more about this refereeing malarkey than me, but this doesn't seem right.

 

[george.g]

I really disagree with this. Is that Ross Joyce's advice?

I agree that there's no offside offence, but it can only be punished as 'cynical' if it stops a promising attack. Given a complete lack of other attackers and the one that is there can't legally touch the ball, I don't see how there can be a promising attack. Like I'm well aware that Ross knows way more about this refereeing malarkey than me, but this doesn't seem right.

Maybe it's the intention behind the foul that's being reprimanded then? If the defender believes the attacker to be offside, then he believes himself to be stopping a promising attack. At least, that's my understanding,