The Ref Stop

World Cup NGA FRA (GK off line)

T

The Referee

Well-Known Member
After the VAR madness in this match, I am absolutely convinced that the game would be better if VAR wasn't involved in the actual penalty taking procedure.
It won't be long until VAR start a six second countdown for keepers holding the ball.
 
The Ref Stop
This is where common sense is failing. If the keeper unfairly and illegally comes off the line and saves the penalty then fine, have it retaken. But if the attacker can't hit the target from 12 yards why on earth should they get another go? The keeper's movement hasn't in the slightest affected the kick going wide. And even more so as they don't appear to be using VAR to detect or penalise encroachment for non-keepers at penalties.

Almost feels to me that they are using the WWC as a trial for more draconian use of VAR, as I don't recall it having been used in the men's game for encroachment (which, let's face it, happens on almost every penalty)
 
RustyRef said:
Almost feels to me that they are using the WWC as a trial for more draconian use of VAR, as I don't recall it having been used in the men's game for encroachment (which, let's face it, happens on almost every penalty)
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This same standard was applied to the U20 World Cup as well. There was a law change involving the GKs and now it seems to be getting strictly applied. For better or worse...
 
cwyeary said:
This same standard was applied to the U20 World Cup as well. There was a law change involving the GKs and now it seems to be getting strictly applied. For better or worse...
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But to apply it when the attacker has missed the target altogether is just crazy. This just shows that the people in charge have never kicked a ball in their lives and have no idea what they are doing.
 
cwyeary said:
This same standard was applied to the U20 World Cup as well. There was a law change involving the GKs and now it seems to be getting strictly applied. For better or worse...
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Yeah, but . . . the law change loosened the restrictions on the GK. Yet not a single one of the violations would have been called in a real game under the old stricter standard. This is the same thing that happened years ago when they changed the law to let GKs move side to side--they amended the law and were more strict about enforcing what was left of the restriction. But it's different this time because not only are they being super picky, but they are using the VAR to identify micro-infractions. And VR may mean that this time it doesn't relax with time, as it is so easy to make precise calls from the video. (And its also different--and unfair--as the micro violations are getting GKs cautioned because of that really stupid idea.) I'm betting there isn't a single goalkeeper on IFAB. . .
 
There are two issues here.

Strict application if encroachment in PK's
It seems that FIFA have decided now that they have VAR and can use technology to support it, they are going to apply it. It's not the first time in this tournament that it has been strictly applied. Any encroachment, even very minor, that impacts the outcome of the PK (as per VAR protocol) is punished. I am all for this. I remember multiple threads here most of us complaining about keeper or other players encroachments not being punished in big tournaments and it made our jobs as grassroots referees much harder. Now that they are applying it. We can't have it both ways. You can't ask for delineation between minor or major encroachments. Where do you draw the line? The law is clear and it's back and white decision.

Should this specific PK been retaken given the target was missed?
As mentioned above it comes down to judging if the encroachment impacted on the miss. That is, when the goalkeeper came off the line to close the angle, did it cause the striker to go just a little wider and miss the target? It's a judgement call and and there are arguments either way. But again I'd go with the retake. In the short term it's a pain but I think if applied consistently we will all benefit from it in the long run.
 
Leaving aside the 'fairness of the law' arguments for a second, as a former goalkeeper and goalkeeping coach, I'd just like to point out it would be relatively easy for keepers to adjust and avoid this issue without even compromising their chances of saving a penalty all that much. Now don't get me wrong - coming off the line to narrow the angle during normal play, when the keeper can be as far off the line as they want, is a highly effective tactic. I used to spend a fair amount of time on drills to practice the technique.

But at a penalty - not so much. In this example, as has been pointed out, the Nigerian keeper's back foot was hardly more than an inch off the line, so the amount by which she had narrowed the angle was so small as to be insignificant. More important, to my way of thinking (and this is what I used to teach) is to choose where you think the player is going to put the kick and dive that way. Assuming the kick is going to be well taken and close to the corner, the further you can get across the goal towards the post, the better. To get the best sideways movement, it doesn't particularly help you to come off the line.

So all keepers need to do here, is concentrate on sideways movement rather than coming off the line. As I see it, not only will this avoid any chance of being penalised, but unless you can get several yards off the line before the kick is taken, moving forwards is not going to help you too much anyway.

RustyRef said:
And even more so as they don't appear to be using VAR to detect or penalise encroachment for non-keepers at penalties.
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This was pointed out on other threads already but (whether you agree with it or not) VAR cannot be used to review non-keeper encroachment unless the encroaching player becomes directly involved in scoring or preventing a goal.
 
Peter Grove said:
Not if following the published VAR protocol. See my previous post.
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Yes, point taken. But really, the referee should be looking for exactly that kind of encroachment. There's an AR to look for a double touch, and VAR to look at if the ball has crossed the line. The fact that she wasn't looking/wasn't brave enough to whistle, especially with the first decision the way it was done, is criminal. Under the logic of this VAR protocol should mean VAR gets involved only if the goalkeeper has saved the penalty. In my opinion, it's outrageous.

I mean, let's not go this route:
, but that VAR can review one offense and not the other is nonsensical. It's really hard to defend, and makes me feel that the game we all referee is more and more removed from the game we see on TV, and that is really sad.
 
socal lurker said:
(And its also different--and unfair--as the micro violations are getting GKs cautioned because of that really stupid idea.) I'm betting there isn't a single goalkeeper on IFAB. . .
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It really surprises me that after screeds of posts complaining about keepers moving too early, we now get moaning about an initiative that will change it all. And believe me, so long as the lawmakers don't cave in to the moaners, it will change. As soon as coaches see VAR getting keepers booked and penalties retaken, almost overnight we will see new coaching (a la Peter Grove's excellent post) eliminating the need to step forward. How do I know? Because I am old enough to remember 1992 and the introduction of the "back pass" restriction. For a short while everyone moaned about how it was ridiculous, and ruined the game (I know, I joined in the moaning). Then after a few awful goals conceded because of it, suddenly keepers learned how to actually kick a football. Now you hardly ever see the offence anymore, and everyone praises the law change as an excellent idea.
 
hi
Wait until it gets to the first KFTPM and also situations with GKs already on cautions for time wasting, USB where it could easily end up as a sending off o a save.
Ireland U17 suffered a GK sending off in the Euro U17 QF. GK on a caution for time wasting I think, went to KFTPM and he saved the last Netherlands penalty but was flagged (not VAR) for encroachment. Sent off and replaced by the centre half. Retake was scored to win the game
Go to 2.18
 
And as a follow up to everyone who is saying "but what about non GK encroachment, they should call that too", I have to say that in my opinion this is a trivial concern. A GK stepping forward can make a HUGE difference to the mindset of the penalty taker. Even if they blaze it wide, the keeper's movement could have had a large effect. Players who step into the area (even by several yards) rarely impact on anything at all, unless the penalty rebounds or is saved. It would probably solve a lot of problems if, like on offside, the IFAB ruled that encroachment is only an offence if the encroacher becomes part of active play. Or bites the bullet and sends all non participating players to the centre circle for a penalty as in KFTPM. But picking up on goalkeeper encroachment....YES!
 
Ganajin said:
And as a follow up to everyone who is saying "but what about non GK encroachment, they should call that too", I have to say that in my opinion this is a trivial concern. A GK stepping forward can make a HUGE difference to the mindset of the penalty taker. Even if they blaze it wide, the keeper's movement could have had a large effect. Players who step into the area (even by several yards) rarely impact on anything at all, unless the penalty rebounds or is saved. It would probably solve a lot of problems if, like on offside, the IFAB ruled that encroachment is only an offence if the encroacher becomes part of active play. Or bites the bullet and sends all non participating players to the centre circle for a penalty as in KFTPM. But picking up on goalkeeper encroachment....YES!
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Before the current changes, yes would agree. But now, goalkeepers only have to keep one foot on or above the line; they are allowed to step forward. I do understand that rules are rules, and that 1cm or 20cm, the goalkeeper has encroached. Hate VAR, hate the way football is refereed now.
 
Hi
VAR can only be reviewed if:
# an attacker who encroached scores or is directly involved in a goal being scored
# a defender who encroached prevents an attacker playing or being able to play the ball in a situation where a goal might be scored
# Other encroachment offences and other infringements which do not directly affect whether a goal is scored cannot be reviewed.
 
QuaverRef said:
This decision just seemed wrong to me. The penalty taker missed without goalkeeper intervention.
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Probably, but can we be sure? We know the keeper already had both feet off the line before the ball was struck (otherwise VAR would not have required a retake) so the argument apparently being used by the IFAB here is that such movement is potentially what caused the player to miss. Now admittedly, in this particular case I'm not convinced that the movement was early enough and noticeable enough for the kicker to have been influenced by it into altering her kicking motion.

However if you're going to start saying that even with the newly relaxed permission that allows the keeper extra leeway to take one full step off the line, you're still not going to penalise it until it's truly, truly blatant then we'd just be going back to exactly where we were before. Allowing the same old practices that always used to be applied to goalkeepers coming off the line before the change, is obviously not what the IFAB had in mind when they made the change.

So long as they stick to this in future, I think (as I said earlier) that keepers should be able to adjust to this relatively easily. The way to do it is to concentrate on lateral rather than forwards movement, which might arguably even improve their chances of making a save, assuming they've chosen the right direction. If they've gone the wrong way, it's not going to make any difference, of course but that was always true.
 
Peter Grove said:
Probably, but can we be sure? We know the keeper already had both feet off the line before the ball was struck (otherwise VAR would not have required a retake) so the argument apparently being used by the IFAB here is that such movement is potentially what caused the player to miss. Now admittedly, in this particular case I'm not convinced that the movement was early enough and noticeable enough for the kicker to have been influenced by it into altering her kicking motion.

However if you're going to start saying that even with the newly relaxed permission that allows the keeper extra leeway to take one full step off the line, you're still not going to penalise it until it's truly, truly blatant then we'd just be going back to exactly where we were before. Allowing the same old practices that always used to be applied to goalkeepers coming off the line before the change, is obviously not what the IFAB had in mind when they made the change.

So long as they stick to this in future, I think (as I said earlier) that keepers should be able to adjust to this relatively easily. The way to do it is to concentrate on lateral rather than forwards movement, which might arguably even improve their chances of making a save, assuming they've chosen the right direction. If they've gone the wrong way, it's not going to make any difference, of course but that was always true.
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Penalty takers are aiming for corners or side netting every time and most, if not all are picking their spot and not lifting their heads before it’s taken. I’m not suggest that whether the striker looks at the keeper or not should be a consideration for VAR, but if a keeper has slightly come off the line before the kick is taken, that for me isn’t an interference if the kick taker hasn’t even hit the target. Had the keeper gone the wrong way last night, would that have been retaken? Probably, and in my opinion, wrongly but that’s the rules we work to unfortunately.
 
The problem is that, although not officially, games with VAR and games without VAR will essentially be played under different laws since it is impossible to spot such minor infractions in real time. This is why I believe VAR should not be involved in the penalty taking procedure.

It's also worth noting that the French team also did not spot the infraction and were not appealing for or expecting a retake.
 
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