The Ref Stop

Minimum observations and games for promotion and de-motion

R

Ryan Woods

Member
Evening Gents,

As the observation season draws to a close i'm just wondering if there is a minimum number of observations you must have to be considered for promotion or de-motion?

Ive currently had 3 observations in 8 games and with only a month to go it just got me thinking if there are any referees in a similar boat but have promotion or de-motion resting on it.

I always thought it was 5 obs and 10 games but cant find anything for level 4-3, 3-2 etc
 
The Ref Stop
You need at least 20 games between March 1 and February 28 in a promotion season (7-6, 6-5 and 5-4). During that time, football will have been played on around 30 Saturdays (out of a probable 40 but allowing for postponements and late starts to the season) and also a handful of midweeks.

If you are at Level 4 and above but have only managed 8 games, then questions will probably be asked about your commitment (unless there was a genuine reason).

If you are below Level 4, then you're unlikely to get promoted without 20 games in. You certainly won't get demoted at levels 5-7.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
You need at least 20 games between March 1 and February 28 in a promotion season (7-6, 6-5 and 5-4). During that time, football will have been played on around 30 Saturdays (out of a probable 40 but allowing for postponements and late starts to the season) and also a handful of midweeks.

If you are at Level 4 and above but have only managed 8 games, then questions will probably be asked about your commitment (unless there was a genuine reason).

If you are below Level 4, then you're unlikely to get promoted without 20 games in. You certainly won't get demoted at levels 5-7.
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I think he means middles. Feasible to have only done 8 with some rotten luck and midweek unavailability.

I am not sure of there is a minimum number of games. But you need to be in the right bandings... which is A/A. If you're really in luck you might go up with A/B. Any one had any experience of refs being promoted with any less than that?

At 4 this is just your pool banding. At level 3 that becomes national pool with location being less of a factor.

But as Brian rightly points out, your availability/commitment will also be a significant contributing factor.
 
@Ryan Woods

At L4, the minimum expected games for consideration for promotion is 10 in the marking season, with 5 observations. Unless the weather seriously affects your leagues matches, on less than 10 matches you will not be considered. A few years ago, when the weather wiped out 3 months of fixtures in Yorkshire, some referees got promoted in 8 games, but that was a very rare occurrence.

If he is first year L4, then there is no minimum requirement for the period Aug to Feb.
 
lincs22 said:
@Ryan Woods

At L4, the minimum expected games for consideration for promotion is 10 in the marking season, with 5 observations. Unless the weather seriously affects your leagues matches, on less than 10 matches you will not be considered. A few years ago, when the weather wiped out 3 months of fixtures in Yorkshire, some referees got promoted in 8 games, but that was a very rare occurrence.

If he is first year L4, then there is no minimum requirement for the period Aug to Feb.
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How does it work when changing pool midway, well 2/3, in the marking season?
What if I were to be in a promotion position in my new pool but not in my old pool? Or vice versa?
 
Brian Hamilton said:
You need at least 20 games between March 1 and February 28 in a promotion season (7-6, 6-5 and 5-4). During that time, football will have been played on around 30 Saturdays (out of a probable 40 but allowing for postponements and late starts to the season) and also a handful of midweeks.

If you are at Level 4 and above but have only managed 8 games, then questions will probably be asked about your commitment (unless there was a genuine reason).

If you are below Level 4, then you're unlikely to get promoted without 20 games in. You certainly won't get demoted at levels 5-7.
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Brian,

I'm available every week and mid-week evenings but there is no shortage of Refs in the NE referee pool meaning we are getting 1 middle a month hence the 8 middles, certainly no lack of commitment.

I can find the promotion criteria for 4-3 but what i cant find is the demotion criteria as in the minimum observations and games.
 
JamesL said:
How does it work when changing pool midway, well 2/3, in the marking season?
What if I were to be in a promotion position in my new pool but not in my old pool? Or vice versa?
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The FA will merge your marks together. Is your new pool permanent or a Univ appointment?

You have one pool each season, but can referee into the new pool for matches. The second pool reports at the end of the season to the FA and your master pool.

But it is all in the hands of the FA - god knows what they will.decide.
 
lincs22 said:
The FA will merge your marks together. Is your new pool permanent or a Univ appointment?

You have one pool each season, but can referee into the new pool for matches. The second pool reports at the end of the season to the FA and your master pool.

But it is all in the hands of the FA - god knows what they will.decide.
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Thanks. Its a permanent move. I doubt that will be my case was just interested in case that did happen. Not expecting to go this year though.
 
Ryan Woods said:
Brian,

I'm available every week and mid-week evenings but there is no shortage of Refs in the NE referee pool meaning we are getting 1 middle a month hence the 8 middles, certainly no lack of commitment.

I can find the promotion criteria for 4-3 but what i cant find is the demotion criteria as in the minimum observations and games.
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If you have been available but not appointed, it's unlikely, whatever the criteria, that you'll be demoted. Fingers crossed.
 
Is demotion a thing? It seems obvious to me now you’ve said it but I’ve genuinlly never heard it mentioned before
 
QuaverRef said:
Is demotion a thing? It seems obvious to me now you’ve said it but I’ve genuinlly never heard it mentioned before
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Yes, automatic at all levels from 4 and above. There are set criteria that if you fall into you will be demoted. At L4 used to be finishing in band D and E for clubs and observers, or vice versa. At L3 used to be finishing in the bottom 15% for clubs and 30% for observers, or vice versa, plus if you didn't finish in the overall top 40% in three consecutive seasons. I've been out for a few seasons now though so the criteria may have changed.
 
RustyRef said:
Yes, automatic at all levels from 4 and above. There are set criteria that if you fall into you will be demoted. At L4 used to be finishing in band D and E for clubs and observers, or vice versa. At L3 used to be finishing in the bottom 15% for clubs and 30% for observers, or vice versa, plus if you didn't finish in the overall top 40% in three consecutive seasons. I've been out for a few seasons now though so the criteria may have changed.
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yeah not quite for L4, and it's definitely not automatic, it's down to the needs of the pool you're allocated to (in my experience of colleagues who haven't done so well over a number of years) , so if they're short of refs it's likely you could meet the demotion criteria and stay at L4.

demotion criteria:

You will be removed from the Supply League Referees List if, for the Supply League(s) on which you have refereed, you are:
  • in the bottom 40% of the Assessor Merit Table AND the bottom 20% of the Club Merit Table or
  • in the bottom 20% of the Assessor Merit Table AND the bottom 40% of the Club Merit Table or
  • in Band E on the Assessor Merit Table in any two successive seasons or in any two out of three seasons
i finished E for assessors 2 years ago so am treading a fine line this season, thankfully i'm averaging 74.1 so should be comfortably top of C/bottom of B
 
That looks quite automatic to me, with it starting with the words "you will be removed". I would have thought you would only have a chance of surviving if they didn't have enough L5-4 candidates nominated for promotion to replace them.
 
es1 said:
Which is pretty much my experience of it!
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Not that different to football itself. If a team finishes in a relegation place and a team in their division folds, or there is no eligible team to replace them from the league below, they get a reprieve and avoid relegation.
 
RustyRef said:
Not that different to football itself. If a team finishes in a relegation place and a team in their division folds, or there is no eligible team to replace them from the league below, they get a reprieve and avoid relegation.
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True!
 
RustyRef said:
That looks quite automatic to me, with it starting with the words "you will be removed". I would have thought you would only have a chance of surviving if they didn't have enough L5-4 candidates nominated for promotion to replace them.
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Certainly know of (at least) one referee in my Supply League last season who was EE but retained. End of the day it's just a numbers game at L4 and L3 I guess.
 
Russell Jones said:
Certainly know of (at least) one referee in my Supply League last season who was EE but retained. End of the day it's just a numbers game at L4 and L3 I guess.
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Thats not uncommon for one season, given the shortage of L4. If he did finish EE for a second season, they would remove regardless of whether there were available replacements. They would reassign from another league.
 
Do referees still get warning letters? Used to be a thing.

Don't see how it would be fair to promote or demote based on three observations.
 
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