A&H

Identifiying offenders

A

andrew vardy

Vardy10
Level 6 Referee
Hi,

Just a quick one, does anybody have any tips on remembering the offender when playing advantage.
Scenario was an OA game, few niggles however mostly a free flowing game. A tackle goes in inside the centre circle, probably worthy of a caution, it was late. The ball breaks to the striker and he is clean through, “i’m willing him to score as i have forgotton to take a second look at the tackler”. He misses and i get loads of calls of good advantage ref but are you not going to have at least a word. I couldnt as i didnt catch who it was between changing direction, watching for offside and following the play.
Any advice appreciated
 
The Referee Store
Took me a long time to work it out, say say the number out loud. Even something like "I'm coming back for that number 7" will help it stick in your mind, plus he knows he is in trouble so won't do the usual trick of trying to disappear into a crowd of players.
 
Apologies for going off topic slightly but I’m new and take any opportunity I can to get a question in.

The mass brawl or flashpoint where 4 or 5 come together exchanging handbags.

My last game questionable attempt to play the ball whilst player laying on ground keeper comes sprinting out launched himself at the offender which sparked off 4 or 5 coming together, couldn’t make head nor tail as to who was doing what just a group giving it large to each other, ideally I wanted to book one each but ended up just doing the keeper.

Any tips on mass comings together and how to single out the aggressor and offenders?
 
RustyRef said:
Took me a long time to work it out, say say the number out loud. Even something like "I'm coming back for that number 7" will help it stick in your mind, plus he knows he is in trouble so won't do the usual trick of trying to disappear into a crowd of players.
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This also helps limit retaliation I've found.
 
RustyRef said:
Took me a long time to work it out, say say the number out loud.
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I can't do that sometimes, the pace is too quick or they're on their backs so I don't see the number. Disappointing, because this is certainly an area of weakness for me. :(

Men in Black said:
Any tips on mass comings together and how to single out the aggressor and offenders?
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Stay out of it and watch. Advice I got from another ref was to take your book out ASAP and flip the record sheet over as soon as you can, and jot down the numbers of those you've seen do a violent conduct offence, then when the dust settles go round dealing with it.

Easier said than done though. So I just watch and try and memorise the numbers of who is doing what. Unfortunately, can't catch them all in that scenario.
 
On your own it’s difficult, try and get aggressor in a melee and the retaliatory person, after that it’s whoever is unlucky enough to stand out. Hair colour, beard, tall, fat whoever sticks in your mind
 
I also shout out something like, am coming back for you 7

One, it might stick in my mind and two, an opponent will soon remind me if i lose track!
 
I can’t remember ever saying I’m coming back for a certain player but I had great pleasure sometimes in going back for someone even if it took 2-3 minutes for the ball to go out of play. They think they were off Scot free but yours truly had the memory of an elephant.

The looks on their faces were a pleasure to upset.
 
RustyRef said:
Took me a long time to work it out, say say the number out loud. Even something like "I'm coming back for that number 7" will help it stick in your mind, plus he knows he is in trouble so won't do the usual trick of trying to disappear into a crowd of players.
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This. By saying the number out loud you make yourself focus on the number instead of just seeing a generic player. I had this a couple of weeks ago. Late tackle by a defender, but the ball breaks with an attacker through on goal. Shot saved and the ball stayed in play for several minutes. When it went out of play the player came to find me to be cautioned!
 
“Stay out of it and watch. Advice I got from another ref was to take your book out ASAP and flip the record sheet over as soon as you can, and jot down the numbers of those you've seen do a violent conduct offence, then when the dust settles go round dealing with it.”

Agreed. I observed a supply league game several years ago and unfortunately the referee showed exactly how not to do it. He stood in the middle of the melee blowing his whistle while 22 players plus 10 subs, managers, trainers and assorted others kicked off around him. His assistants stayed on their lines and did nothing, so were no use to him. He did not speak to them when it had calmed down, so I don’t know if they actually saw anything, but they certainly didn’t help if they did.
I saw several players throw punches but no one was even cautioned because he didn’t get any numbers at all because he was too close and got caught up in it.
He complained about the mark I gave him because he felt his assistants let him down, which was a comment in the debrief / report, although there was plenty of advice for him as well!

If you’re too close you won’t see it all, and you will be lucky to get anything if you stand in the middle. Try to be proactive if you can to stop it escalating, but as soon as there are more than 2 or 3 players involved move away and watch. Personally I don’t write numbers at the time because I don’t want to miss anything, but I say “blue 5, red 3” for players I’m sending to imprint them and use my whistle to stop them. If using a sheet with team numbers try putting a tick beside the number for players to be dealt with so you don’t look away for too long.
 
Two different topics going on here. Would have been good to have two threads.

1. Its a matter of getting into the habit of it and making it routine. Saying something like "coming back to you no.7" is good. I look at the offender briefly and point straight at him in a way that everyone can see it. Although I don't say anything, you can do that at the same time as saying something. The benefit of a visual communication is that those who are further away are aware who and you have seen something more than just the standard advantage.

2. If you have ARs be sure to cover what you want them to do at mass con. My instruction is to triangulate, near AR 10 yards out, far AR 25 yards out. You can get in there if there are only two players going at each other, but as soon as a third player comes in, step back and as mentioned above start taking numbers down. Red7R, Blue15Y, Blue9Y, Blue8R... As a rule of thumb, the first two that caused it end up with at least yellows. Always talk to your ARs after a mass con. if you have them.
 
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In terms of remembering an offender, trying to remember a number or distinguishing feature has been covered; the other thing I try and do is ask my NAR's in the pre-match to help with this and to keep an eye on the offender if I do play an advantage.

But if you do lose the player (and I guess this happens to all of us at some point) the technique that I've used before is to bluff!

You can call in to a group of players, "not a good challenge there, keep it fair", or maybe try "Skipper, your man's walking a fine line with that one manage him for me". Not ideal, but at least communicates that you've seen it and are dealing, and may fool them in to thinking you know exactly who it was!
 
markref said:
Agreed. I observed a supply league game several years ago and unfortunately the referee showed exactly how not to do it. He stood in the middle of the melee blowing his whistle while 22 players plus 10 subs, managers, trainers and assorted others kicked off around him. His assistants stayed on their lines and did nothing, so were no use to him. He did not speak to them when it had calmed down, so I don’t know if they actually saw anything, but they certainly didn’t help if they did.
I saw several players throw punches but no one was even cautioned because he didn’t get any numbers at all because he was too close and got caught up in it.
He complained about the mark I gave him because he felt his assistants let him down, which was a comment in the debrief / report, although there was plenty of advice for him as well!
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What did his PMI mention about this? If he did not mention anything to them about positioning, tag a deduction in Teamwork as well. If he mention and they did nothing - he should have gone and found them to ask.
He had subs and team officials around him - and binned nobody. I would hate to think what the mark would be under the new marking scheme for AoL?
 
He did cover this, but they didn’t do what he asked them to, which was why he objected to my report / mark. Up to that game he was in band a / band a, so it cost him promotion. He had almost forty people around him, several of whom threw punches, so it wasn’t surprising he didn’t catch it all, but he didn’t get anyone.
The melee happened in the penalty area over 50 yards from the technical areas, so it was obvious who wasn’t meant to be on the pitch and should have been dealt with.
As discussed, he needed to step away and should have called them in since they didn’t appear to want to get involved. If they still didn’t come in then go and speak to them before restarting - Especially since he obviously got nothing himself due to being too close.
The assistants are no longer on the league. The referee missed promotion that year but got it a couple of years later.
 
MattyAB said:
But if you do lose the player (and I guess this happens to all of us at some point) the technique that I've used before is to bluff!
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I did this recently. It was a leg-breaker challenge, and a genuine leg-break. I lost the player because, well, we were sorting out the leg-break and it was the first time I've ever had to deal with a serious injury.

I lost the player responsible for it, so produced the red card to one of the lads, who very quickly pointed out the offender for me to send off. In hindsight, I probably should have just asked who it was, because it was one of those tackles that no one was defending. The guy was pretty upset, I just hope he takes that lesson home with him not to launch into such a tackle ever again. :(

In future, I'll manage that a bit better, but then, I can't really promise anything because if it ever happened again my first instinct is to deal with the injury. :(
 
Nice advice above. I'd say there are two ways to work this out...

  • With communicators, everything's easy. Ideally, my assistants get very involved in the game, and the one on the opposite half of the field where play is will pay a lot of attention to what goes on. He watches my back, he keeps an eye on the goalkeeper at set pieces, and assists me with advantage. Whenever somethings looks like a foul and he sees, from his very ample perspective, that an advantage may follow, he just says 'wait'. When he sees me extending my arms, he'll say out loud who the offender was -he leaves me entirely the decision to caution or not to caution, unless I'm missing something obvious. If he can't spot the number, he'll say the colour of his shoes or of his hair, or whatever that can help me down the line. And he'll keep an eye on him, just in case he can spot the number.
  • Without communicators, life's tough. If you see the number, say it out loud. If the player is next to you, just tell him '7, I'll have to book you when play stops next'. Not for him to know, but for you to remember. If you miss the number, try to remember anything that may help you identify him later on. And, before the game, tell the assistants to remember the offender's number whenever you play advantage, and ask them if needed.
That consultation without comms may be more difficult to manage than it sounds. In order to keep my credibility, I used the following protocol, agreed with my ARs before the game: when the ball goes out of play, I look at them and raise my head, questioning discreetly. If they know, they step forward one or two yards and invite me to come with their hand. Then they just say the number, and I proceed. If they don't know, they just shake their head and I do nothing. If the one I ask doesn't know but the other does, the other simply raises the flag, I go there, and proceed.

Why did I use to do this? It's just a protocol to avoid this scenario: I ask one, doesn't know. I ask the other, doesn't know. I make a fool of myself, and we are telling everyone that three certified referees are unable to identify an offender.
 
@SamSkywalker Interesting point RE assistants. Just a query - I'm not sure I'm too keen of the idea of my assistants shouting out the number of the offender. I think this could give the impression that either the assistant wants further action taken (which damages the refereeing team's credibility if no such action is forthcoming) or that further action is imminent. I think it puts the referee in a very tight situation unnecessarily.
 
alexgr said:
@SamSkywalker Interesting point RE assistants. Just a query - I'm not sure I'm too keen of the idea of my assistants shouting out the number of the offender. I think this could give the impression that either the assistant wants further action taken (which damages the refereeing team's credibility if no such action is forthcoming) or that further action is imminent. I think it puts the referee in a very tight situation unnecessarily.
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do you mean, shouting in the comms scenario or in the ol' school scenario?
 
alexgr said:
Either really, if it's in earshot of the players I think you're setting yourself up badly.
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Wel, with comms, typically, play will be well away from the AR who's supposed to say the number. That means that very few players should be within earshot (typically, the left back, perhaps one of the centre backs). And it wouldn't be a shout, just 'number 8' in a normal tone. With good comms, once is enough. Now, let's get practical: if I decide not to card and for some reason I don't hear the number, I won't ask him to say it again. If I do decide to card and don't hear, then I'll ask to repeat, but it won't matter because a caution will be issued...

Without comms, assistants will only seem to want further action to be taken if the referee is actually going to take further action. So no prob.

To be honest, I didn't get used to all this in a single game. But my experience is quite positive!
 
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