Handball?
- Thread starter Jackson
- Start date
Looks okay to me, his hand is out
That looks like the expected position for me. Where should his arm have been?
I the arm is being used to create barrier, stopping the cross and the player is taking a risk by moving the arm into that position.
As the ball is played the arm is down by the side, next it's sticking out blocking the path of the ball.
No matter the wording that IFAB uses I think this will always be seen as a hand ball offence. I'd argue football expects... I think the reaction of the handler says alot too.
I'm going to assume you aren't a referee!!
I don't think this is accidental.. This is a player who isn't taking enough care to not handle the ball.
The law specifically talks about making the body unnaturally bigger, the exact wording:
"Touches the ball with their hand/arm when it has made their body
unnaturally bigger. A player is considered to have made their body
unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence
of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation. By having their hand/arm in such a position, the player takes a risk of their hand/arm being hit by the ball and being penalised"
(Emphasis my own)
In this clip we have a player attempting to stop a cross, to do so he is opening up his body in a way that makes him unnaturally bigger. As a result of that action making himself unnaturally bigger the arm is away from the body and he is taking a risk.
I think you'll find all the FIFA teaching to be consistent with this type of handling being an offence.
You may disagree in that you don't like the law as written or its application but, in law, and how referees are being taught, this is a handball offence.
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
I can’t view the clip (geo blocked), but I feel your pain as to what I gather it shows. I think what we all need to understand is that natural position doesn’t really mean what the words say. I think IFAB wanted to get closer to that by adding in the language about natural for what the player is doing, but there is unquestionably a gloss on the concept that there are certain places soccer players are expected to keep their arms out of the way, even if it might be natural in all other walks of life. That includes arms away from the body when a cross is coming and arms up in the air when jumping. Regardless of biomechanics and how the body works, the Game does not consider those natural for soccer players in a space where they might get hit by the ball. The efforts to further define those in the Laws never worked well, but those concepts remain—and more so at the top levels with professional athletes deemed to have masterful control over their bodies.
If he was running at speed I might agree with you, but he wasn't and rather was just turning. His arm coming out like that was in no way related to the movement in that specific situation. Very difficult to give real time, but with VAR that is always going to get given.
Well, l think it's accidental and he was making his body naturally bigger with his body movement. I also think you are being taught wrongly to call that a handball offence. There are some ridiculous penalties being given when arms are in natural positions. More common sense is needed.
Can I ask, are you a referee? As it isn't about us "being taught wrongly", rather we have to just apply the laws as they are written, even if we don't agree with them. And under the current laws that is a handball offence.
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
You want things to be different from what they are, as has been explained above. Ok. Tell IFAB. Don’t tell a group of referees who work hard to apply the Laws and the teaching coming from IFAB as to what they mean to do things differently because you think the Law should be interpreted differently. The letter of the Law Is often hard to parse real meaning without knowing the teaching that comes from on high as to how It is to be interpreted.
All the law says is the arms are in the expected position for the body movement. That's all that should matter.
RefRyanAus
Active Member
These are subjective decisions based on the opinion of the referee. Whilst we would all like perfectly consistent decision making this is unrealistic even at the higher levels of the game. Referees are not robots. Handball must be one of the most contestable decisions in the modern game and I am surprised that anyone feels that these kinds of decisions are simply black or white. Sometimes we just need to accept that things are imperfect and move on with our lives.
And I think you are wrong.
You are looking at it from the wrong angle (no pun intended)
You see a player trying to block a cross, and are attributing the natural biomechanics associated with that action as justifiable, or a consequence of the movement for that situation.
But to do that he has to move his body into an unnatural position, so he is making himself unnaturally bigger and taking a risk.
What you have to look at here is the players motive, which is to stop the cross by any means possible and in doing so creating a barrier making himself bigger. There is nothing natural about the players movement or position, he's doing an unnatural movement. The consequence of the ball hitting his arm in my opinion is not justifiable in the context of the movement.
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
I see. What IFAB says they mean by the language doesn’t matter, only the interpretation of a non-referee waving his fist in the air on a referee forum. Sorry buddy, go tilt at windmills somewhere else. While I, like you, think it would be better to have a bit more leniency in this space, the powers that be don’t agree with you. And those of us who choose to run are tails off on soccer fields getting yelled at, not surprisingly, will follow the teaching that comes down from those with actual authority and responsibility, not a shrill complainer who just doesn’t like it.
thank you ref chat for the ignore function.
You are going to struggle have any credibility asking a question on a refereeing forum, getting told the same answer by multiple referees (some of whom are also assessors and / or operate at a very high level of the game, and then telling them they are wrong.