The Ref Stop

Champions League Referees

M

Matthew

RefChat Addict
I'll start this of by saying that I'm not making excuses, City absolutely deserve to be bottom of the group.

Referees are human and they all make mistakes, I totally understand and accept that. Whilst I'll happily come on Refchat, Twitter etc to moan and criticise our officials for making mistakes, I have absolutely no doubt that, like the rest of us, they are making honest mistakes. Invariably, they even out over the course of a season because a mistake will favour every team at some point.

In the Champions League, however, I'm having serious doubts. This is supposedly Europe's elite football competition; it should therefore mean that the referees are also the best. Why are they making a catalogue of errors in every game?

Some examples;
  • Bayern v City - Stonewall penalty not given in the closing minutes of the first half, a game that City go on to lose 1-0.
  • City v Roma - Penalty given to City in the opening minutes after Aguero is dragged back 6 yards from goal; inexplicably, Maicon is not dismissed for DOGSO. The game ends 1-1 after Maicon sets up a goal for Totti.
  • CSKA v City - At 2-0 up, a ball is played through to Edin Dzeko in the box who is hacked down. Stonewall penalty not given. CSKA come back into the game and are given a penalty in the closing minutes following a dive by Doumbia, allowing CSKA to equalise.
  • City v CSKA - Where do I start? After two minutes, a free kick is given for handball by Clichy, who is no more than a yard away. What is he supposed to do? CSKA take the lead from the subsequent free kick (this doesn't excuse the defending, which was quite frankly embarrassing). Throughout the game, there were two tackles on Milner (two footed, studs up) for which nothing was given. Into the second half; no issues with Fernandinho's first yellow, but where is he supposed to go for the second? The attacker ran into him. Just to add insult to injury, Aguero is then dragged down by a player who has already been booked; the ref then brings out the yellow card and proceeds to book the WRONG PLAYER, when booking the correct player would have led to a red card. BASIC STUFF!!! No complaints over Yaya, that was just plain stupid. Finally, two penalty appeals in the closing minutes; the first one would've been soft, but it most certainly wasn't a dive. As for the second one, what was the ref looking at? It was a foul.
I'm fully aware of how bitter this seems, but i've had enough of the so-called 'elite' refs making such basic errors. These are match changing decisions that seem to go one way and one way only; nothing new, the English clubs have been screwed over in Europe on a regular basis for as long as I can remember.

The top referees should not be making such simple mistakes, which causes me to question why they are actually being made. UEFA have to protect 'their' clubs (Real, Barca, Bayern etc) and will do whatever it takes to ensure that the status quo remains, whether through FFP or by ensuring that the top clubs are favoured; everything they do is geared towards maintaining the status quo.

I hate the Champions League and everything it stands for. Rant over!
 
The Ref Stop
Wow!!!! Matt , are you insinuating what I think you are ? :foot: in a round about way

Surely not :(

I must reading too much into it ;)
 
I have certain 'suspicions' @Beezer but I think you may be reading too much into it.

It seems my point didn't come across too well. I think that the refs are being put under an immense amount of pressure and are making basic errors on a regular basis as a result of this; they're terrified of giving decisions against the big teams in case it's wrong, and equally terrified of not giving decisions in their favour in case they've made a mistake.

UEFA are desperate to maintain the so called 'elite' of European football. The referees, I'm sure, are doing their best and acting honestly but the pressure is causing them to make very poor decisions in favour of certain teams and against others.

I'll also re-state that City are useless in Europe, the refs certainly aren't to blame for that! We're just :poop::D
 
After reading this thread last night I actually went about watching YouTube clips on all of City's games (extended highlights) on YouTube late last night, just to have a look for myself.

Have to mention that I hate City with a passion (almost as much as I hate United) but I can definitely understand and be sympathetic towards City fans this season. They have had a tough time of it in the CL for sure and the referees haven't helped whatsoever.
 
Matthew said:
I'll start this of by saying that I'm not making excuses, City absolutely deserve to be bottom of the group.

Referees are human and they all make mistakes, I totally understand and accept that. Whilst I'll happily come on Refchat, Twitter etc to moan and criticise our officials for making mistakes, I have absolutely no doubt that, like the rest of us, they are making honest mistakes. Invariably, they even out over the course of a season because a mistake will favour every team at some point.

In the Champions League, however, I'm having serious doubts. This is supposedly Europe's elite football competition; it should therefore mean that the referees are also the best. Why are they making a catalogue of errors in every game?

Some examples;
  • Bayern v City - Stonewall penalty not given in the closing minutes of the first half, a game that City go on to lose 1-0.
  • City v Roma - Penalty given to City in the opening minutes after Aguero is dragged back 6 yards from goal; inexplicably, Maicon is not dismissed for DOGSO. The game ends 1-1 after Maicon sets up a goal for Totti.
  • CSKA v City - At 2-0 up, a ball is played through to Edin Dzeko in the box who is hacked down. Stonewall penalty not given. CSKA come back into the game and are given a penalty in the closing minutes following a dive by Doumbia, allowing CSKA to equalise.
  • City v CSKA - Where do I start? After two minutes, a free kick is given for handball by Clichy, who is no more than a yard away. What is he supposed to do? CSKA take the lead from the subsequent free kick (this doesn't excuse the defending, which was quite frankly embarrassing). Throughout the game, there were two tackles on Milner (two footed, studs up) for which nothing was given. Into the second half; no issues with Fernandinho's first yellow, but where is he supposed to go for the second? The attacker ran into him. Just to add insult to injury, Aguero is then dragged down by a player who has already been booked; the ref then brings out the yellow card and proceeds to book the WRONG PLAYER, when booking the correct player would have led to a red card. BASIC STUFF!!! No complaints over Yaya, that was just plain stupid. Finally, two penalty appeals in the closing minutes; the first one would've been soft, but it most certainly wasn't a dive. As for the second one, what was the ref looking at? It was a foul.
I'm fully aware of how bitter this seems, but i've had enough of the so-called 'elite' refs making such basic errors. These are match changing decisions that seem to go one way and one way only; nothing new, the English clubs have been screwed over in Europe on a regular basis for as long as I can remember.

The top referees should not be making such simple mistakes, which causes me to question why they are actually being made. UEFA have to protect 'their' clubs (Real, Barca, Bayern etc) and will do whatever it takes to ensure that the status quo remains, whether through FFP or by ensuring that the top clubs are favoured; everything they do is geared towards maintaining the status quo.

I hate the Champions League and everything it stands for. Rant over!
Click to expand...

City fan by any chance?
 
Matthew, you said these officials made a catalogue of errors. You then listed 1 error per game (2 for vs CSKA). So that is one error, in your opinion as a self confessed City fan, per game by a referee. Please can you provide a list of the errors of each player for City in each of these games.

I would class the following as player errors, each of which resulted in possession being lost by City or an advantage being gained by their opponents
  • misplaced pass
  • misplaced header
  • missed tackle
  • shots on goal not scored
  • shots on goal not saved (goalkeeper)
Then please list each of the offences both penal and technical committed by each City player in each game.

The reason I ask for these lists is that each is an example of these players not doing what they should during a game.

Now compare the list for each player against the "catalogue" of errors list for your players. How does that stack up?
 
Whilst I agree with the essence of your point Mr H, I disagree with the individual 'competencies' (for want of a better word) you've chosen to use.

In the case of Matthew's point about a catalogue of errors, I feel he's talking about KMI's. In that case, surely it would be better to get a list of MCFC errors comparable to that. For example, a missed one-on-one, a misplaced pass in a two-on-one, defensive error leading to goal/shot on goal etc.
 
DanCohen17 said:
Whilst I agree with the essence of your point Mr H, I disagree with the individual 'competencies' (for want of a better word) you've chosen to use.

In the case of Matthew's point about a catalogue of errors, I feel he's talking about KMI's. In that case, surely it would be better to get a list of MCFC errors comparable to that. For example, a missed one-on-one, a misplaced pass in a two-on-one, defensive error leading to goal/shot on goal etc.
Click to expand...
Dan, I like your thinking. On reflection a list of City KMI errors will be considerably shorter. It would have to include incidents which contributed directly to the KMI, for example the missed challenge on the halfway line, leading to a last minute lunge by a defender which gave away the free kick from which the goal was scored, etc. (I haven't watched any CL games this season by the way).
 
Matthew said:
Just to add insult to injury, Aguero is then dragged down by a player who has already been booked; the ref then brings out the yellow card and proceeds to book the WRONG PLAYER, when booking the correct player would have led to a red card.
Click to expand...
UEFA stated yesterday that this caution was for dissent. Which is why the other player was booked.
 
Dan and Brian; I see where you're both coming from.

Off the top of my head, I'd say you had three KMI errors by City in the CSKA game. One by Yaya Toure for the first goal, where he lost his man and two for the second goal; Fernando giving the ball away, followed by a missed challenge by Clichy. Obviously this depends on what you consider to be a key error.

I think if you look at it in this way, the errors by individual teams/players will almost always be higher. At the same time, as referees we have a responsibility not to make crucial errors. It happens of course, but to have such a large number of key errors (all in my unbiased view of course :D) is incredibly unlucky to say the least.

AlexF said:
UEFA stated yesterday that this caution was for dissent. Which is why the other player was booked.
Click to expand...

Have a look at the incident if you get chance; I couldn't see any dissent, the player booked didn't appear to be anywhere near the ref.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Matthew said:
City v CSKA - Where do I start? After two minutes, a free kick is given for handball by Clichy, who is no more than a yard away. What is he supposed to do? CSKA take the lead from the subsequent free kick (this doesn't excuse the defending, which was quite frankly embarrassing). Throughout the game, there were two tackles on Milner (two footed, studs up) for which nothing was given. Into the second half; no issues with Fernandinho's first yellow, but where is he supposed to go for the second? The attacker ran into him. Just to add insult to injury, Aguero is then dragged down by a player who has already been booked; the ref then brings out the yellow card and proceeds to book the WRONG PLAYER, when booking the correct player would have led to a red card. BASIC STUFF!!! No complaints over Yaya, that was just plain stupid. Finally, two penalty appeals in the closing minutes; the first one would've been soft, but it most certainly wasn't a dive. As for the second one, what was the ref looking at? It was a foul.
Click to expand...

Like ELP, I've just taken a look at some highlights of the Citeh v CSKA game to see if Matthew has a case.

My observations:-

Clichy handball - debateable - i'm with Matthew on this one
Fernandinho's second yellow - deliberately impeded the CSKA player by stepping in front of him
Aguero was fouled twice, but not 'dragged down' by the CSKA number 3. The player who was booked, 24?, was being pretty mouthy towards the ref so, imho, was probably booked for dissent.
Toure - agree - violent conduct
Aguero dive - (presumably the 'first one' in Matthew's post) - from what i could see from the tv replays, he looked for the penalty and, imho, he 'dived' tho, due to the camera angles, it was difficult to see if there was contact with the defender's trailing leg that caused him to go down
 
Matthew said:
Dan and Brian; I see where you're both coming from.

I think if you look at it in this way, the errors by individual teams/players will almost always be higher. At the same time, as referees we have a responsibility not to make crucial errors. It happens of course, but to have such a large number of key errors (all in my unbiased view of course :D) is incredibly unlucky to say the least.
Click to expand...

Actually I suspect that is exactly the point. Every elite player/referee performs at a level way above that which most of us can manage. They also have the capacity to make mistakes. If you watch any high level game, be it the Prem or the World Cup, there will be some incidents that are at least debatable - otherwise what would Sky commentators talk about for two hours each side of a game?

I get that your post is borne of frustration, but it is from a fan's point of view and falls into the classic trap of thinking that it's all biased against you. That's all understandable, although your insinuations about the lesser quality of European referees and the need to 'protect' certain clubs (CSKA?!) go beyond reasonable, IMO.
 
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