The Ref Stop

Bundesliga referee walks off the pitch

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Peter Grove

RefChat Addict
Did anyone see this? Bayer Leverkusen vs Borussia Dortmund - in the 64th minute the referee awards a free kick for a foul by a Leverkusen player on a Dortmund defender about 10 yards outside the Dortmund penalty area. The ball rolls about four or five yards forward and a Dortmund player takes the free kick from there, Dortmund break forward and score.

Cue protests from the Leverkusen manager (whether over the free kick itself or the position it was taken from, I'm not sure). Now here comes the strange part. Although I couldn't be 100% sure from the TV coverage as they kept replaying the goal, it appeared the referee sent the Leverkusen captain over to tell the manager to stop protesting (the TV commentators who presumably were still watching the pitch itself also said the referee did not talk to the manager, only the player did). The captain came back, talked to the referee, the ref sent him back to talk to the manager again, apparently this time to tell him to go to the stands. The manager did not leave the touchline (he can be heard saying "Warum?" or in English, "Why?" on the pitchside microphones). The captain returned again, talked to the referee again (I assume to say the manager did not want to leave and wanted to know why he was being sent away from the field) at which point the referee walked off the field, motioning to the other match officials to leave with him.

Over 9 minutes later and with the manager in the stands, the referee resumed the match.

I have never seen a similar situation before, where the referee does not talk to the manager himself but uses the captain to relay a series of messages. The player in question also seemed to be questioning it, on several occasions he pointed to himself as if to say, "Why me? Why am I being asked to do this?"

Although I can sympathise slightly with this referee, did he follow the correct procedure here?
 
The Ref Stop
Very odd as there was a fourth official present on the sideline also.

I wonder if this is something in the Bundesliga rules? Something particular to the reaction of the manager which meant he should not have been approached? Other than that.... It's odd.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35623542
 
My guess, based on the footage that's out there of the incident (~5 minutes long), is that the manager said something, 4O told him to temper it, but he kept going. 4O and ref were in constant contact based on their body language and microphone use.

Ref turned to manager, obviously dismissed him. Manager began insisting "come here and tell me that". Captain sent over. No go? Fine. We're leaving.
 
i have seen this in germany before, the captain deals with the benches, dont see the reason why, but if the coach refused to go the referee was quite right
 
You can watch it in real time here, about twenty minutes in on the second half highlights tab.

Seems a bit stubborn/petty by the ref, but if that's Bundesliga protocol then fair enough.

According to my magic measuring tool, by the way, the foul was 15 yards outside the Dortmund penalty area, and the free kick taken six yards further upfield - still a good 70+ yards from the Leverkusen goal.

You can understand the argument if it had been in the final third of the pitch, but not that far away. Though, in defense of the manager, he didn't seem like he was going exactly mental - and also apologised for his behaviour after.

Here's a related incident that I'm amazed was allowed to let slide, from 41 seconds in:

 
On the original match footage, which I watched several times , I saw no sign of the referee (or the 4O for that matter) saying anything to the manager, although he does seem to have a quick word with the AR at one point. All other communication seemed to go through the captain. If that is "how they do it" in Germany, it seems a strange way to go about doing things. How does the referee know the captain is thoroughly and correctly relaying his message to the manager? And vice versa. We all know what can happen in a game of Chinese Whispers.

Incidentally, although I don't watch full Bundesliga games every week I do watch my fair share of games and I'm sure I've never seen this before. Also, if this is the normal procedure in Germany, I have to wonder why the player (the acting captain) who was acting as a go-between, seemed so baffled by it all.
 
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Am I the only person wondering why the referee walked back onto the field?
If the manager leaves, match is abandoned. Once abandoned, you can't 'unabandon'. Not sure where leaving the field until he gets the message comes into the picture...

And using the captain as a message boy is just ridiculous. If that's what the referees are told to do then so be it, but it's a ridiculous instruction.
 
They didn't abandon. They suspended.

And yes, apparently they were following Bundesliga rules to the "T".

Dismiss, 4O communicates. Still nothing? Captain now gets involved. Nothing? OK, off the field.
 
I was once told, if the referee has asked the manager to leave the field of play for whatever reason and he refuses to go then you, the ref, say "Either you go or I go"! Not sure how correct this is and have never had to do it but seems quite a good way of managing it.
 
AlexF said:
They didn't abandon. They suspended.

And yes, apparently they were following Bundesliga rules to the "T".

Dismiss, 4O communicates. Still nothing? Captain now gets involved. Nothing? OK, off the field.
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Well, if "them's the rules" then I suppose we can hardly blame the referee but it seems like a stupid way to go on, if you ask me. The sight of a player traipsing the 70 yards or so backwards and forwards between the centre circle and the sideline several times in a row struck me as a particularly unedifying spectacle, not to speak of the amount of time that was wasted.

What's so wrong with the referee talking directly to the manager? That's they way it's usually done in the Premier League and I have yet to see a manager who was told by the referee to go to the stands, refusing to do so.

In fact if you listen to what the coach said afterwards, it seems the whole reason he refused to go in the first place is because he wanted to hear it directly from the referee. So going by that, it would appear that if the referee had been the one doing the communicating, the whole sorry mess could have been avoided.
 
I've dismissed a handful of coaches in my time, and at least one of them, I didn't even get close to him, because I knew if I engaged him in the manner that this coach wanted in the example above, then the misconduct was going to be far worse than what it was in the end. I made it clear (much like the ref above) that the coach was dismissed and that I was not engaging any further with him.

The 3rd Team blog (primarily based out of Germany) put together a good writeup on the situation:
http://footballrefereeing.blogspot.ca/2016/02/felix-zwayers-match-suspension.html
 
Will Triffitt said:
I was once told, if the referee has asked the manager to leave the field of play for whatever reason and he refuses to go then you, the ref, say "Either you go or I go"! Not sure how correct this is and have never had to do it but seems quite a good way of managing it.
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I think at grassroots this would be the way to do it, when it's generally just one person without any backup, and possibly 30+ people against us. We wouldn't quite have the leverage that the pros would.
 
frank_ref said:
I think at grassroots this would be the way to do it, when it's generally just one person without any backup, and possibly 30+ people against us. We wouldn't quite have the leverage that the pros would.
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Yeah. I guess in higher leagues especially where there are adult players and 20 fans who go to grounds if they refuse to go eventually you would walk off but on the side of the managers you'd have an assistant ref and 4th official. Three against them is more likely to work than one!
 
Well I guess suspending is valid within the LOTG. At what level would people suggest considering this as an option rather than simply 'you leave or I do' and sticking with it?
 
AlexF said:
I've dismissed a handful of coaches in my time, and at least one of them, I didn't even get close to him, because I knew if I engaged him in the manner that this coach wanted in the example above, then the misconduct was going to be far worse than what it was in the end. I made it clear (much like the ref above) that the coach was dismissed and that I was not engaging any further with him.
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That's fine for an individual incident with a specific coach that you know is particularly troublesome but to extrapolate from that and make it an official policy that referees should never talk to coaches/managers, is a totally different proposition.

AlexF said:
The 3rd Team blog (primarily based out of Germany) put together a good writeup on the situation:
http://footballrefereeing.blogspot.ca/2016/02/felix-zwayers-match-suspension.html
Click to expand...

Interesting writeup, but it seems to contradict your earlier assertion that Zwayer was following an officially laid-down Bundesliga procedure (although it does mention that it is "common praxis" to use the captain to communicate with the bench). Because, if Bundesliga referees are supposed to handle misbehaviour in the technical area like this, why does it say:
Ideally, he could have directly walked out to him. Immediately after the goal, after the very first protests. Like someone to whom I spoke correctly pointed out, sending someone off from much distance is "no premium solution"
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Peter Grove said:
That's fine for an individual incident with a specific coach that you know is particularly troublesome but to extrapolate from that and make it an official policy that referees should never talk to coaches/managers, is a totally different proposition.



Interesting writeup, but it seems to contradict your earlier assertion that Zwayer was following an officially laid-down Bundesliga procedure (although it does mention that it is "common praxis" to use the captain to communicate with the bench). Because, if Bundesliga referees are supposed to handle misbehaviour in the technical area like this, why does it say:
Click to expand...

I think that the article's intent is to say that while Zwayer could have avoided the situation in the first place by sending the coach off from a closer proximity, he chose to send him off from a distance and that once Schmidt began his "you come to me" tactic, the referee had no choice but to remain at a distance -- you can't give the child what it wants when it's having a strop.
 
Peter Grove said:
That's fine for an individual incident with a specific coach that you know is particularly troublesome but to extrapolate from that and make it an official policy that referees should never talk to coaches/managers, is a totally different proposition.

Interesting writeup, but it seems to contradict your earlier assertion that Zwayer was following an officially laid-down Bundesliga procedure (although it does mention that it is "common praxis" to use the captain to communicate with the bench). Because, if Bundesliga referees are supposed to handle misbehaviour in the technical area like this, why does it say:
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I never stated that the referee should not communicate with the manager, I was trying to state that any further communication went via 4th official or captain only.

I can see how my wording above kinda sorta glossed over that first part with just "dismissal" though.
 
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