A&H

'Afters' after advantage

Riiight, no I get it. Handbags is a caution for both players. Tackling player causes the ruckus with a poor foul tackle (not reckless or dangerous) so deserves the yellow for retaliation in the following altercation anyway, knowing the aggro lad is going to come at him. Justifiable YCs

@Anubis do you ref kids football?

Only weekly for the last 30 years


but its your post not mine. Based purely on the post, everything in it smells of, ( as other posters have said) two cautions.

If you are appointed by a league, to a competitive fixture, you are duty bound to apply the lotg, inc sanctions, to the best of your ability.
 
The Referee Store
I think you're confusing yourself here mate. (No offence). ;)

If the tackle deserved a caution then it was because it was either reckless or cynical (SPA). Full stop. You may view the resultant "flash point" that came afterwards as an extension of the challenge but it's a separate thing. You played advantage, so you can't caution for SPA but you can go back and caution for a reckless challenge. You could also have cautioned for USB (AA) by both players involved in the handbags, which, as I read it from your original post, is a separate action from both individuals.
This. I was also going to write it out if it helps:

SPA advantage (because still promising attack) - no YC

Reckless advantage (because good situation) - still YC

Red card advantage (ONLY if there is a cast iron goalscoring opportunity) - still red (unless it was DOGSO red advantage in which case downgrade to YC)

…and this is a good time to remember if you play advantage on a red card because of an imminent goalscoring opportunity and the player interferes then it’s IDFK.

…and if you play advantage on reckless do shout so the player knows the card is coming!
 
If you have allowed advantage then the ball is still in play. If you had stopped play for the original foul then the restart would be the free kick to the away team, regardless of the foul by the away team player. You could caution him, or dismiss him, or even just warn him about his behaviour, but the restart would still be the free kick to the away team. However, because the ball was in play at the moment the away team player committed a foul, the game should have been stopped and restarted with a free kick to the home team.
 
If you have allowed advantage then the ball is still in play. If you had stopped play for the original foul then the restart would be the free kick to the away team, regardless of the foul by the away team player. You could caution him, or dismiss him, or even just warn him about his behaviour, but the restart would still be the free kick to the away team. However, because the ball was in play at the moment the away team player committed a foul, the game should have been stopped and restarted with a free kick to the home team.
Not sure I follow this post correctly. If you play advantage and the advantage doesn't ensue you bring it back for the original foul, irrelevant of what happens during the advantage phase. If the advantage has accrued, or a Few seconds pass then yes any new offences penalised as per but if its still the advantage phase order of offences means back to original offence.
 
This is something I see a lot with new referees, especially when they have gone from playing, they play way, way too much advantage. At grass roots level, where player skill level and often the pitch quality is questionable. there really should be very few advantages. Forget about what the top level referees do, that is a different game altogether, at your level using too much advantage is probably the biggest risk a referee can have to their match control. If the temperature of the game is increasing and it is geting niggly you really only want to be playing the most obvious of obvious advantages, where play is very much in the attacking third.
 
I remember a newly appointed referee allocations person who asked all referees officiating in that junior league to attend a pre-season meeting. In that meeting he told all of the referees, if you are issuing cards at junior football then you are doing something wrong as a referee. Totally incorrect and inappropriate advice but I'm sure some of the younger referees would believe this. It reminds me of your comments here relating to cards for U13's. It's competitive football and if the laws warrant a card then I would suggest you show it. Don't have hang ups about cards and certainly don't listen to any parent giving you advice about cards. Players cannot learn suddenly at U15. Don't kid yourself that they do not know the laws of the game, they most certainly do. I'll add also from someone that was a junior football coach for 12 years until recently, as a team manager, I wanted referees to show cards when warranted for my players and opposition players. It does not make the referee look weak, more often than not, it instils respect and discipline and you will find games much easier. If you think U15-U18 will be easier to manage then think again. The skill levels are sometimes higher but the dissent and poor behaviour doesn't always improve.

Try to stop thinking of cards as a sign of weakness. If teams want a qualified referee then they should respect the referee managing the game according to the laws of the game.
 
As a ref, do you need to be consistent (i.e letting the game flow all game) or do managing the game (not letting it flow) even if it benefits one team over another?

I think @Anubis has hit the nail on the head with this previously with the horse analogy on other posts... I'll let others go hunting if they want to quote it!
 
This is something I see a lot with new referees, especially when they have gone from playing, they play way, way too much advantage. At grass roots level, where player skill level and often the pitch quality is questionable. there really should be very few advantages. Forget about what the top level referees do, that is a different game altogether, at your level using too much advantage is probably the biggest risk a referee can have to their match control. If the temperature of the game is increasing and it is geting niggly you really only want to be playing the most obvious of obvious advantages, where play is very much in the attacking third.
This. ^ ^ All day long.

Sure, even at the basest grass roots levels, there is often the opportunity to play advantage but generally maybe only once per match in my own experience.
Referees at that level just letting fouls go in the middle third and shouting "advantage" is what teaches players (incorrectly) that "advantage" is simply retaining possession after a foul has been committed. It most certainly isn't. I've lost count of the number of times I've had a player moan at me because he's kept the ball after a foul in his own half and I've blown for the FK. :rolleyes:
It's irritating having to explain the law to an indignant would-be Maradona every time it happens. :wall:
 
@Moortz as someone who has almost exclusively reffed kids football (especially U11-U13, but I have reffed up to U17), I will give my 2 cents. First of all, two facts can be true at once. You can ref a kids game different to an adult game, and you need to fully apply the LOTG.

You can’t be afraid to show cards. You don’t need to card for every little thing, but that’s exclusive to most football games. What you can do at kids football, is utilise words more. Someone else in the thread summed it up, kids are more likely to listen to the talk, they’re used to “stop that behaviour or you’ll be punished” from school.

I have given out 3 yellow cards in youth football (2 at U11s and 1 at U12s.) I have threatened a yellow card many times. All but 3 times, that’s curbed the players behaviour. Those 3 got booked. But you have to be willing to book, the worst thing for your match control is to give the public warning then not follow up if they do it again.

Every referee refs different and that’s fine. But I feel “letting the game flow” and “lack of cards” is a very risky combo. I’ve been criticised by managers in the past and asked to let the game flow more. In response I inform them that if their players stop fouling, then I can let the game flow. In my experience, letting the game flow leads to harder games to referee. And at kids football especially, player safety is the big emphasis above all else, making me even less likely to let the game flow.
 
This is something I see a lot with new referees, especially when they have gone from playing, they play way, way too much advantage. At grass roots level, where player skill level and often the pitch quality is questionable. there really should be very few advantages. Forget about what the top level referees do, that is a different game altogether, at your level using too much advantage is probably the biggest risk a referee can have to their match control. If the temperature of the game is increasing and it is geting niggly you really only want to be playing the most obvious of obvious advantages, where play is very much in the attacking third.

This has probably been the biggest improvement in my personal game this season. For too long I'd wrongly assumed that playing several advantages during a game would show my understanding and ability to 'read' the game. Having read numerous comments on this forum and after a fair bit of self-reflection I realised that hardly any of my advantages actually resulted in anything remotely promising. Which, as already mentioned, is easily replaced or even bettered by giving teams the opportunity to lump the ball forward into the box.

I'm probably unlikely to play more than 1 advantage a game now, apart from last Sunday where 2 played and 2 scored! Still didn't get any credit from the sidelines though!
 
It might be worth discussing what constitutes an advantage now, since it is a big issue with the OP. A good definition for advantage is "allowing play to continue when an offense occurs, and the team that has been fouled will be afforded an attacking benefit from the application of the advantage [my emphasis]." The question to ask yourself is this: which option benefits the fouled team more: stopping play and awarding a free kick; or allowing the team to keep clear and effective possession?

Did you catch it? The key words here are "clear and effective." Possession must be clear and it must be an effective attacking opportunity. That's why advantage in the middle of the park is so rare and that's why it's even rarer when the quality of the players is so low. There is no reason in the world barring a full-on break-away opportunity to play advantage for a team of 12-year-olds when they are still 40-60 yards away from goal. None. They can't kick far enough, as a general rule, to make it an effective attacking opportunity. Far better to stop play and let them play a set piece.

IFAB has identified 4 key criteria when determining whether to play advantage. Here they are:

Severity of the Offense: In general, the more severe the offense, the clearer the advantage must be. A small, trifling foul? Then the chances of playing on are greater. A two-footed, studs up, locked-leg tackle to the inner thigh of the defender? The ball had better be on the goal line between the posts with nobody around it for you to play advantage. The gradient continues in between. In the case of OP, there is some discussion as to whether the tackle constituted a careless or reckless tackle and it's not clear from his description of the event (we're missing the point of contact, speed, and force). In this case, I can't make a determination about whether the OP's situation was one which maybe should have been stopped right away due to severity or if playing advantage was fine.

Proximity to the Goal: Where on the pitch did the offense occur? Nearer to goal, more likely to be an advantage. Again, in the OP, we see that the incident occurred near the halfway line which is quite far from goal. As mentioned above, this is especially far for the age group who mostly have not developed enough physical strength to move the ball such a great distance quickly.

The Chances of an Immediate Promising Attack: What are the chances that the attacking team immediately springs an attack? Well, look at a few indicators: the number of teammates in the area, the number of defenders, the amount of open space, and, of course, the quality of the players. When I read the OP, I can see how there might have been an opportunity for an immediate promising attack, assuming that the winger was isolated one-on-one with a defender and there were numbers driving forward for the attacking team. This is probably the only criteria that the OP meets for playing advantage.

The Atmosphere of the Match: When the temperature of the match rises, the use of advantage goes down. Instead, we want to slow things up when things get too heated. In the case of OP, knowing who the player that was tackled was could be instructive. The player who was tackled was a known instigator, and the referee knew that this tackle was a sort of revenge tackle because the player in question had left a bit in on other tackles. This needs to be recognized for the danger point that it is, and that raises the severity of the incident to requiring a stoppage. In other words, this criteria was not met.

In order to successfully play advantage, the referee should be satisfied that all four of these criteria are met. In the case of OP, the maximum amount of criteria met are two of the four and it is likely fewer than that. In fact, there's a real possibility that none of the criteria are met. The point here is that there should never have been an advantage in this case due to all of the above and that this is a good, instructive example of how "letting the game flow" can be a powerful tool, but, like most powerful tools, extremely dangerous when not used correctly.

All of this is not to say that the referee in the OP had a 'mare or is a terrible ref. We all get things wrong from time to time and it is entirely possible that he has never been taught the criteria and the correct method of using considerations to make decisions. Hopefully you will all find this helpful and instructive.
 
It might be worth discussing what constitutes an advantage now, since it is a big issue with the OP. A good definition for advantage is "allowing play to continue when an offense occurs, and the team that has been fouled will be afforded an attacking benefit from the application of the advantage [my emphasis]." The question to ask yourself is this: which option benefits the fouled team more: stopping play and awarding a free kick; or allowing the team to keep clear and effective possession?

Did you catch it? The key words here are "clear and effective." Possession must be clear and it must be an effective attacking opportunity. That's why advantage in the middle of the park is so rare and that's why it's even rarer when the quality of the players is so low. There is no reason in the world barring a full-on break-away opportunity to play advantage for a team of 12-year-olds when they are still 40-60 yards away from goal. None. They can't kick far enough, as a general rule, to make it an effective attacking opportunity. Far better to stop play and let them play a set piece.

IFAB has identified 4 key criteria when determining whether to play advantage. Here they are:

Severity of the Offense: In general, the more severe the offense, the clearer the advantage must be. A small, trifling foul? Then the chances of playing on are greater. A two-footed, studs up, locked-leg tackle to the inner thigh of the defender? The ball had better be on the goal line between the posts with nobody around it for you to play advantage. The gradient continues in between. In the case of OP, there is some discussion as to whether the tackle constituted a careless or reckless tackle and it's not clear from his description of the event (we're missing the point of contact, speed, and force). In this case, I can't make a determination about whether the OP's situation was one which maybe should have been stopped right away due to severity or if playing advantage was fine.

Proximity to the Goal: Where on the pitch did the offense occur? Nearer to goal, more likely to be an advantage. Again, in the OP, we see that the incident occurred near the halfway line which is quite far from goal. As mentioned above, this is especially far for the age group who mostly have not developed enough physical strength to move the ball such a great distance quickly.

The Chances of an Immediate Promising Attack: What are the chances that the attacking team immediately springs an attack? Well, look at a few indicators: the number of teammates in the area, the number of defenders, the amount of open space, and, of course, the quality of the players. When I read the OP, I can see how there might have been an opportunity for an immediate promising attack, assuming that the winger was isolated one-on-one with a defender and there were numbers driving forward for the attacking team. This is probably the only criteria that the OP meets for playing advantage.

The Atmosphere of the Match: When the temperature of the match rises, the use of advantage goes down. Instead, we want to slow things up when things get too heated. In the case of OP, knowing who the player that was tackled was could be instructive. The player who was tackled was a known instigator, and the referee knew that this tackle was a sort of revenge tackle because the player in question had left a bit in on other tackles. This needs to be recognized for the danger point that it is, and that raises the severity of the incident to requiring a stoppage. In other words, this criteria was not met.

In order to successfully play advantage, the referee should be satisfied that all four of these criteria are met. In the case of OP, the maximum amount of criteria met are two of the four and it is likely fewer than that. In fact, there's a real possibility that none of the criteria are met. The point here is that there should never have been an advantage in this case due to all of the above and that this is a good, instructive example of how "letting the game flow" can be a powerful tool, but, like most powerful tools, extremely dangerous when not used correctly.

All of this is not to say that the referee in the OP had a 'mare or is a terrible ref. We all get things wrong from time to time and it is entirely possible that he has never been taught the criteria and the correct method of using considerations to make decisions. Hopefully you will all find this helpful and instructive.
Great post, but the problem is top level referees, certainly in England, don't really follow any of that, except perhaps severity and atmosphere. There are as many advantages played in the defensive third as there are in the final third, so of course grass roots referees watch EPL games and think that is the right thing to do. Which it of course isn't as the skill levels are vastly different and the pitches are like carpets.
 
Great post, but the problem is top level referees, certainly in England, don't really follow any of that, except perhaps severity and atmosphere. There are as many advantages played in the defensive third as there are in the final third, so of course grass roots referees watch EPL games and think that is the right thing to do. Which it of course isn't as the skill levels are vastly different and the pitches are like carpets.
Right, I agree. But the only thing we can do to counteract that is to continue to propose the correct way and hope it sinks in :p
 
And this raises a larger point, RR: we are not premier league referees and we aren't refereeing premier league players for premier league audiences. What we need to do is get back to the basics, rely on the considerations, and do the things we are taught to do. Maybe someday we will get to see the inner workings of the Prem, after we've proven that we can do it "correctly."
 
And this raises a larger point, RR: we are not premier league referees and we aren't refereeing premier league players for premier league audiences. What we need to do is get back to the basics, rely on the considerations, and do the things we are taught to do. Maybe someday we will get to see the inner workings of the Prem, after we've proven that we can do it "correctly."
Trust me, if I observe a referee using advantage like an EPL referee I will pull him up on it, the same as I will if cards are being flashed like the top level guys do. But 90% of referees aren't on promotion and therefore will never, ever get observed.

Also, it isn't just the top level, and in England you are expected to use more advantage the higher the level you go so I totally understand why the EFL referees play so much. I've refereed loads of EFL reserve / U23 games and you have to adjust your style as they don't want play stopping if they keep the ball.
 
Trust me, if I observe a referee using advantage like an EPL referee I will pull him up on it, the same as I will if cards are being flashed like the top level guys do. But 90% of referees aren't on promotion and therefore will never, ever get observed.

Also, it isn't just the top level, and in England you are expected to use more advantage the higher the level you go so I totally understand why the EFL referees play so much. I've refereed loads of EFL reserve / U23 games and you have to adjust your style as they don't want play stopping if they keep the ball.
Of course, but they aren't who I wrote the post for.
 
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