A&H

Open Age A slight phantom goal issue

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dylan22

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Enjoyed reffing a match yesterday, all going smoothly, both teams were going for it and relatively well behaved (a sin bin and a yellow for a bad foul), no complaints and both sets of players were very good about most things.

Home team were far and away the better team, 5-1 up with five minutes to go - the ball gets crossed into the box and a bit of a free for all ensues, home team striker managers to prod the ball toward the goal through a number of players, goalkeeper scarpers back to get the ball - I thought I saw the ball cross the line so immediately whistle and point back toward the centre, cue defending team to huddle round me saying the ball hadn't crossed, no obvious celebration from the striker at the time or the home team, though he says the ball crossed too.

I repeat to the away team that the ball had crossed and stand by the decision. Even now, in my mind the ball had crossed, though given the lack of celebrations from any of the team nearby it's odds on that it maybe didn't - the lines on the field were pretty awful and through the bodies of players I thought it had crossed.

At the end, the away team captain and I had a good chat, he said he didn't know how I'd given it as a) in his words I couldn't have seen it clearly and b) the home team didn't celebrate - he was very good about it as he said it wouldn't have changed the course of the game, and said some nice things about my performance up to that point.

Any advice on how a similar situation can be avoided in the future? - in retrospect I could've consulted the CAR to 'sell' it, but he was hands in pockets on the half way line at this point given it was last 5 mins and they were 5-1 down.
 
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dylan22 said:
Any advice on how a similar situation can be avoided in the future?
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dylan22 said:
the lines on the field were pretty awful and through the bodies of players I thought it had crossed.
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This makes it sound as if you didn't have a clear view and in which case, I would very much understand the defending team disputing the decision.

So, my first thought is where were you positioned? If you're near the goal-line, you should be able to sell the decision easily. If you're further out and looking through a sea of bodies, you're going to beg the question.

Where were you basically?
 
RobOda said:
This makes it sound as if you didn't have a clear view and in which case, I would very much understand the defending team disputing the decision.

So, my first thought is where were you positioned? If you're near the goal-line, you should be able to sell the decision easily. If you're further out and looking through a sea of bodies, you're going to beg the question.

Where were you basically?
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Fair point(s) - I was maybe 12 yards-ish out to avoid getting in the way of the free for all, but in hindsight could've gone up the side for a better view of things.
 
dylan22 said:
I thought I saw the ball cross the line
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This is what struck me. We need to be sure the ball crossed the line, not think it did. Obviously that is much,much harder without ARs, but if you aren't certain the ball crossed, play should continue.
 
As the free for all, as you describe it, ensues do anything you can to get closer to the goal line. You rightly say you don't want to get in the way, but you won't get in the way if you stay out of that central area. Then at least when you give it you will have a bit more credibility as they will see you had a decent view.

Tough though, as when you are on your own you won't have as good a view as a neutral assistant would.
 
One of the key things I always tell newer referees and AR's when they cross my path is that "you have far more time than you think to make a decision"

Take your time, buy yourself that extra second or so of time to compute and then give the decision.
 
dylan22 said:
Any advice on how a similar situation can be avoided in the future? - in retrospect I could've consulted the CAR to 'sell' it, but he was hands in pockets on the half way line at this point given it was last 5 mins and they were 5-1 down.
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As you note, this wouldn't have sold it anyway in this case. To tell the truth, very hard to use a CAR to do this at any time, as they are not neutral and usually on their own defence. What would you have done if they'd said 'nope, never a goal'?
 
dylan22 said:
though given the lack of celebrations from any of the team nearby it's odds on that it maybe didn't
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Just bear in mind that at 5-1 up with 5 minutes to go there might not necessarily be much celebration. Also, don't let the losing teams complaints cloud your judgement. You gave what you thought at the time was correct (it may well have been) but there is some good advice here on how you might make the decision with more confidence next time around.
 
Martiju said:
As you note, this wouldn't have sold it anyway in this case. To tell the truth, very hard to use a CAR to do this at any time, as they are not neutral and usually on their own defence. What would you have done if they'd said 'nope, never a goal'?
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In a similar situation to OP, I remember having a CAR in an U11 friendly. With 5 minutes to go, I looked to see what his decision was and saw he was kicking a football around with his kid on the touchline and not paying attention to the game. Useless.

A few minutes later, he was telling me he’d definitely seen the ball cross the line from a goalmouth scramble. As he became insistent I reminded him that I was stood parallel to the goal line to see it whilst he was stood parallel to the halfway line on the side of the field, and that just a few minutes ago he’d been kicking a football around rather than paying attention. “But I was paying attention then ref.”

Don’t get why you’d consult with CARs. Although we only use them for ins and outs, so maybe that’s why I don’t quite get the consulting. But still they’re a club person why would you tend to trust them? Especially as they tend to be subs or assistant managers 95% of the time. Ins and outs when you’re not sure, go for it. Otherwise dont bother
 
Joshref said:
Don’t get why you’d consult with CARs. Although we only use them for ins and outs, so maybe that’s why I don’t quite get the consulting. But still they’re a club person why would you tend to trust them? Especially as they tend to be subs or assistant managers 95% of the time. Ins and outs when you’re not sure, go for it. Otherwise dont bother
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It depends on the decision and what you're hoping to get out of it really. In the situation described in the OP here, the "consult" with the CAR is being suggested as an excuse for selling the correction of a wrong decision: "Sorry guys - I wasn't sure so went with my instinct, but the AR is certain so I'm going to go with him in this situation".

I do use my CAR's for offside, and there are a number of situations where it can help with that definitely. An older one I remember was a ball played through and the flag went up, but I was certain it was against one player on the far side who the ball didn't go to rather than the one who actually did end up scoring. So a quick jog over to him, confirm that my suspicions were correct and then explain that I'm giving the goal because the offside player was inactive. The consult both allowed me to confirm my suspicions, and kept the AR happy for the rest of the game because he understood why he'd been overruled - if I'd just stood in the middle and pointed for the goal, it would have been a guess, and it would have annoyed the CAR and made him less helpful for the rest of the game.

Similar one recently where a 20-ish yard shot was taken, saved by the GK and tucked in on the rebound by a striker. I was sure he was offside, but the CAR was a young sub who was stood there looking confused. Jog over, ask him to describe what happened and he says that the striker was in an offside position, but he hadn't flagged because he thought the GK's save reset offside. Again, the chat helped me reach the correct decision, but also, helped the CAR feel respected and included, which meant he went on to be helpful for the rest of the game.

They might not be pro's, but they're also not all intrinsically dishonest, some often just want to help.
 
GraemeS said:
They might not be pro's, but they're also not all intrinsically dishonest, some often just want to help.
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Absolutely! I've had some cracking CARs, especially on the women's game where partners do it week in, week out and are actually engaged. You just have to take them on their own merits.
 
Had a CAR give the flag a wave to confirm a free kick bouncing down off the bar had crossed his own teams goal line just this Sunday. Top work that fella.

funnily enough, had one either end.
 
Feel like as a ref you really don’t need to be the one blowing your whistle for a goal during a goal line scramble.

it will be obvious when the ball has crossed the line by the reaction of the players. Yes, 5-1 up they may not celebrate enthusiastically, but there will be some indication whether it’s in or not.
 
gvu_ref said:
Feel like as a ref you really don’t need to be the one blowing your whistle for a goal during a goal line scramble.

it will be obvious when the ball has crossed the line by the reaction of the players. Yes, 5-1 up they may not celebrate enthusiastically, but there will be some indication whether it’s in or not.
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A bit dangerous to base your decision on attackers thinking a goal has scored.
 
Max2 said:
Had a CAR give the flag a wave to confirm a free kick bouncing down off the bar had crossed his own teams goal line just this Sunday. Top work that fella.

funnily enough, had one either end.
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The convention here is a wave means a free kick. For a goal it's just straight up. But I guess in your case it couldn't be interpreted any other way. And better have that than nothing.
 
gvu_ref said:
Completely agree, would be looking at defenders and keeper also
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I just gotta say that if you get a legit read on a ball that barely crosses the goal like that you've got a different universe of players than I see. In my experience, when it's close either way, all the attackers "know" that it's a goal and all the defenders "know" that it isn't . . .
 
socal lurker said:
A bit dangerous to base your decision on attackers thinking a goal has scored.
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From from my experience when ALL attackers immediately appeal a tight call screaming “ref ref ref that went over the line” then 99% of the time you can safely say that IT DIDNT. They are lying

If there’s a slight delay then that’s more of a telltale sign it’s gone in. Dk why that’s the case, maybe there’s a psychological explanation, or maybe it’s only in my experience.
 
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