The Ref Stop

Shaming Refs & Financial incentive to Ref (in addition to match fees)

B

blackref

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Never heard of it before has anyone else? Shaming refs that have something else on after accepting an appointment (excuse me for having a life, family members get extremely ill, urgent hospital appointment, fancy whats on screen 3 at cinema - who am I to make such a JUDGEMENTAL call of colleagues!) BUT if you do 'x' number of games we'll pay you a bonus. Three figure sum if you say "how high" when we say "jump", ok I may have exaggerated the jumping part but accept more than one match per week and so on and the cash prizes just go on up and up.

Desperate times for leagues? Trying to poach Refs from other leagues perhaps?

How about installing more respect in the game and more Refs wont turn down appointments be that individual or reffing all-together. Obviously the incentive to ref varies from person to person but its no just financial its about the whole experience. I personally do not think financial incentives will work alone.
 
The Ref Stop
Bonus for reffing so many matches per season, more you ref the more you get a bonus. Obviously its a reasonable number something like 75% of 100% of season so guess allows for postponements etc. Bonus paid by league to refs that basically commit and carry through appointments. If other appointments that take priority of the league occur the ref is not penalised in bonus scheme.
 
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blackref said:
Bonus for reffing so many matches per season, more you ref the more you get a bonus. Obviously its a reasonable number something like 75% of 100% of season so guess allows for postponements etc
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Where is this?

If leagues want to incentivize and have a budget to do so then that is there prerogative to do so.
 
Don't really see an issue with this. It is also done with observers, some CFAs offer incentives like free kit if they do so many games. It doesn't affect other referees or observers, they still get paid exactly the same, they just don't get the incentive for going over and above.

It isn't that long ago that there was a centrally fun FAMOA incentive scheme. You used to get a book where you'd get stamps for each game you refereed, along with extras for things like in-service training, then would be able to order goodies at the end of the season, the more points you had accrued the more money you had to spend. Well it was when I was starting out, so perhaps was that long ago, but my point stands 😂

Our league does a similar thing for clubs where we incentivise good behaviour by waiving registration fees for the following season for the team finishing top in each division. That loss of income is covered by league funds, the other clubs don't contribute towards it, I see that as pretty much the same as offering incentives to referees and observers.
 
RustyRef said:
Don't really see an issue with this. It is also done with observers, some CFAs offer incentives like free kit if they do so many games. It doesn't affect other referees or observers, they still get paid exactly the same, they just don't get the incentive for going over and above.

It isn't that long ago that there was a centrally fun FAMOA incentive scheme. You used to get a book where you'd get stamps for each game you refereed, along with extras for things like in-service training, then would be able to order goodies at the end of the season, the more points you had accrued the more money you had to spend. Well it was when I was starting out, so perhaps was that long ago, but my point stands 😂

Our league does a similar thing for clubs where we incentivise good behaviour by waiving registration fees for the following season for the team finishing top in each division. That loss of income is covered by league funds, the other clubs don't contribute towards it, I see that as pretty much the same as offering incentives to referees and observers.
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FAMOA was great. The issue was it was too easy to fiddle the system!
 
Yes I remember the FMOA incentive scheme. What it struck me is the league is struggling to get refs ( Im reliably informed the coverage is very low well under 50% weekly) but for me, I think if you want to attract and retain refs then the respect in the game has to improve and improve on a massive scale all around. I do not see financial incentives as the answer at least not on their own.
 
Reads like you're bothered about it as you can't committ and won't benefit from it.

I'm sure the league won't mind being named.

Many leagues pay back the course fee after someone does a certain amount of games on their league.
A local youth league hands out free ref tops after 10 games, rain jacket after a 100 games.
 
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blackref said:
Yes I remember the FMOA incentive scheme. What it struck me is the league is struggling to get refs ( Im reliably informed the coverage is very low well under 50% weekly) but for me, I think if you want to attract and retain refs then the respect in the game has to improve and improve on a massive scale all around. I do not see financial incentives as the answer at least not on their own.
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Financial incentives are the answer to almost everything. Do you work overtime because you like your boss and they behave well, or because you are going to be paid extra for it? If you are eligible for a bonus do you put the extra effort in for the love of the company, or because you know that if you don't your bonus will be toast?

In London we had the TTFF, Turkish Community Football Federation, they'd always traditionally paid way over the odds match fees as it kicked off so often, that was the only way they could attract and keep referees. Could be viewed as an incentive, could also be viewed as danger money, whichever way you chose to look at it. And before I get accused of anything, I'm not saying this was a Turkish thing, rather this league just had an extreme reputation for player and team behaviour. I also know that the committee tried really hard to improve behaviour but ultimately failed, but some referees would be happy to take the risk every week for the extra £15 to £20 fee. That's the very definition of a financial incentive.
 
bester said:
Reads like you're bothered about it as you can't committ and won't benefit from it.

I'm sure the league won't mind being named.

Many leagues pay back the course fee after someone does a certain amount of games on their league.
A local youth league hands out free ref tops after 10 games, rain jacket after a 100 games.
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I dont ref for the money as long as expenses covered im not bothered what bothers me is a lack of respect in the game and judgmental attitudes such as comments such as (this isnt exactly it but not far from mark) "some refs change their minds after committing to appointments that causes grief blah blah but for those that commit and follow through do x number of games and we'll give you a bonus etc". I am saying it may attract 1 or 2 refs BUT if you wanna attract and retain refs you need to look after them in other ways and best way forward is improving respect in the game. That has a long way to go in my opinion.
 
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RustyRef said:
Financial incentives are the answer to almost everything. Do you work overtime because you like your boss and they behave well, or because you are going to be paid extra for it? If you are eligible for a bonus do you put the extra effort in for the love of the company, or because you know that if you don't your bonus will be toast?

In London we had the TTFF, Turkish Community Football Federation, they'd always traditionally paid way over the odds match fees as it kicked off so often, that was the only way they could attract and keep referees. Could be viewed as an incentive, could also be viewed as danger money, whichever way you chose to look at it. And before I get accused of anything, I'm not saying this was a Turkish thing, rather this league just had an extreme reputation for player and team behaviour. I also know that the committee tried really hard to improve behaviour but ultimately failed, but some referees would be happy to take the risk every week for the extra £15 to £20 fee. That's the very definition of a financial incentive.
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I can see that makes logic sense all im saying is financial incentives i believe cannot work alone and whilst e.g. cup finals aren't generally paid and yet get the trophy instead etc. plus expenses after a while there is only so much free kit you need, so what else do you use. For me, I would like to see SEVERE punishments for lack of respect all throughout the game and i mean SEVERE such as what I recall many years ago think when respect campaign was out certain punishments for a club resulted in punishments for ALL clubs affiliated and that resulted in a lot of unhappy people that soon made sure internally there were no repeats. Also kicking clubs outta league for poor behaviour, docking all points, relegation, the fines these days are chicken feed clubs and player couldn't care less stop them playing that hurts them far more. The approach is far too softy softly far too often. I think leagues are genuinely frightened of clubs being upset.

This is definitely the case at small sided summer tournaments where the host club doesn't wanna upset other clubs so they dont lose lotta money coming back next year. I have seen organisers rip up discipline cautions, they rather the player plays on under a quiet little word than upset the team and have them withdraw next year. I have also coached and quite honestly these tournaments are quite often fixed to the point of scandalous, especially when player registration is taken on trust.
 
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If a league wish to incentivize referees to do more games for them, then that's great news for the referees, I can't fathom why it would upset you so much.

With regards to shaming a ref for coming off a game after it's been appointed, I don't think a grass roots referee should ever have to feel bad for being unavailable, but every league will have some sort of open and closed dates system and timelines for appointments. If you've opened a date and then come off a game after an appointment has been made then it will depend on the circumstances. If it's a genuine family emergency then I'm sure they would / should understand. If it's that you fancy what's on in screen 3 at the cinema, then I don't blame them for being annoyed. It's called sorting administration out and it's a basic principle of refereeing before you get on the field. They shouldn't be publicly shaming refs for it still of course, but I don't know if that's what you're suggesting or not.

If you don't like conforming to the standards of administration required or if it's going to upset you that those who can contribute more time to referee on a league than yourself may receive a financial benefit that you may miss out on, then maybe refereeing on that league (or in general) isn't for you.
 
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I don't agree with shaming someone for being unavailable, but coming off games can cause a massive headache and even postpone games for teams so I can see why leagues get frustrated.

I am cautious with my availability so I never have to put my appointment officers out unless it's a genuine emergency
 
RefereeX said:
You seem to have a rather large chip on your shoulder based on a few of your posts.

If a league wish to incentivize referees to do more games for them, then that's great news for the referees, I can't fathom why it would upset you so much.

With regards to shaming a ref for coming off a game after it's been appointed, I don't think a grass roots referee should ever have to feel bad for being unavailable, but every league will have some sort of open and closed dates system and timelines for appointments. If you've opened a date and then come off a game after an appointment has been made then it will depend on the circumstances. If it's a genuine family emergency then I'm sure they would / should understand. If it's that you fancy what's on in screen 3 at the cinema, then I don't blame them for being annoyed. It's called sorting administration out and it's a basic principle of refereeing before you get on the field. They shouldn't be publicly shaming refs for it still of course, but I don't know if that's what you're suggesting or not.

If you don't like conforming to the standards of administration required or if it's going to upset you that those who can contribute more time to referee on a league than yourself may receive a financial benefit that you may miss out on, then maybe refereeing on that league (or in general) isn't for you.
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I find reference to a chip on my shoulder very offensive. Have a re-think who you are talking to, sterotypical references and I await your response.
 
blackref said:
Have a re-think who you are talking to
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Funnily enough, I have absolutely no idea who I'm talking to as we're on an internet forum and you don't have a photo or any information about yourself...

Edit to add: Should you genuinely be offended for whatever reason by the idiom I used, I apologise as I would never want to upset anyone in that way.

The original point still stands though.
 
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blackref said:
I find reference to a chip on my shoulder very offensive. Have a re-think who you are talking to, sterotypical references and I await your response.
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I am not sure what you are insinuating here?

However I have deleted that part of the post.

With all due respect, your posts on the forum this far are generally negative around refereeing which I am 100% sure is what @RefereeX was refering to.

Just a gentle warning to all: keep the post on topic, Otherwise it will be closed for further replies.
 
blackref said:
I can see that makes logic sense all im saying is financial incentives i believe cannot work alone and whilst e.g. cup finals aren't generally paid and yet get the trophy instead etc. plus expenses after a while there is only so much free kit you need, so what else do you use. For me, I would like to see SEVERE punishments for lack of respect all throughout the game and i mean SEVERE such as what I recall many years ago think when respect campaign was out certain punishments for a club resulted in punishments for ALL clubs affiliated and that resulted in a lot of unhappy people that soon made sure internally there were no repeats. Also kicking clubs outta league for poor behaviour, docking all points, relegation, the fines these days are chicken feed clubs and player couldn't care less stop them playing that hurts them far more. The approach is far too softy softly far too often. I think leagues are genuinely frightened of clubs being upset.

This is definitely the case at small sided summer tournaments where the host club doesn't wanna upset other clubs so they dont lose lotta money coming back next year. I have seen organisers rip up discipline cautions, they rather the player plays on under a quiet little word than upset the team and have them withdraw next year. I have also coached and quite honestly these tournaments are quite often fixed to the point of scandalous, especially when player registration is taken on trust.
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Punishments for misbehaviour are not within the gift of the league though, only CFAs can take action about on-pitch misconduct. And even if they could I'm struggling to see why they couldn't do that alongside having a referee incentive scheme, one doesn't preclude the other.
 
blackref said:
Never heard of it before has anyone else? Shaming refs that have something else on after accepting an appointment (excuse me for having a life, family members get extremely ill, urgent hospital appointment, fancy whats on screen 3 at cinema - who am I to make such a JUDGEMENTAL call of colleagues!) BUT if you do 'x' number of games we'll pay you a bonus. Three figure sum if you say "how high" when we say "jump", ok I may have exaggerated the jumping part but accept more than one match per week and so on and the cash prizes just go on up and up.

Desperate times for leagues? Trying to poach Refs from other leagues perhaps?

How about installing more respect in the game and more Refs wont turn down appointments be that individual or reffing all-together. Obviously the incentive to ref varies from person to person but its no just financial its about the whole experience. I personally do not think financial incentives will work alone.
Click to expand...
Speaking as a former Appointment Officer/Secretary, my role for the league meant getting as many games covered as possible. If I had a budget and needed to pay extra on mileage (as we did in the two years before I left the role) to get a game covered, then I will pay extra.

I have to pick you up on the point about giving a game back because you decide to go to the cinema (or indeed any other social engagement) after saying you will do the game. This used to create a huge amount of re-work for me and my appointing colleagues. We would note those referees who did this more than a couple of times a season and they would find themselves sliding down the divisions when appointments were being made.

As for poaching referees form other leagues, if referees were going to multi register (as they were/are entitled to do), then clarity around appointing schedules, organising early appointments and commitment from the match officials was the best way to foster respect between league and match officials. Giving back words for a Saturday afternoon in the local Cineworld was probably the worst.

Other cinema chains are available...
 
blackref said:
Never heard of it before has anyone else? Shaming refs that have something else on after accepting an appointment (excuse me for having a life, family members get extremely ill, urgent hospital appointment, fancy whats on screen 3 at cinema - who am I to make such a JUDGEMENTAL call of colleagues!) BUT if you do 'x' number of games we'll pay you a bonus. Three figure sum if you say "how high" when we say "jump", ok I may have exaggerated the jumping part but accept more than one match per week and so on and the cash prizes just go on up and up.

Desperate times for leagues? Trying to poach Refs from other leagues perhaps?

How about installing more respect in the game and more Refs wont turn down appointments be that individual or reffing all-together. Obviously the incentive to ref varies from person to person but its no just financial its about the whole experience. I personally do not think financial incentives will work alone.
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Leagues desprate, eh? Probably bc of all the incidents in all the matches shooin away other refs. Shortage of referees prob.
 
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