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GK handling

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socal lurker

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GK hand on the ball at the edge of the PA. What matters?

A. Whether any part of the ball is still in the PA
B. The location of the point of contact between the ball and the hand, even if part of the ball is still I. The PA
C. Tho location of the GK’s feet
 
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The Ref Stop
Didn’t read this properly due to being half asleep. Answer is B as below…
 
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b)

If part of the ball is inside the area and a defender touches part of the ball that's outside the penalty area we are giving a free kick.
 
B
Law 12 - the GK has the same restrictions on handling the ball as any other player outside the penalty area.
So it is the location of the handling that counts.
 
Prob a dozen debates on this over the years on the forum.

The law is open to interpretation on this. The common practice and convention is A.i am sure there an email from IFAB about it (mine or @JamesL )
 
One scenario that might sway some minds is consider the ball being part in PA and part outside of FOP over the goal line. If a defender (not Keeper) handles the part outside PA and pushes it back in, penalty right? Now if that is the keeper, how can that be handball. We can't have the cake and eat it too ☺️
 
I asked because I have always been taught A, and the scenario @one posted is one of the reasons that I’ve always thought A has to be the right answer. But I read on another forum that IFAB had posted a question and said B on their Facebook page. But I went to their Facebook and don’t see it, so perhaps it was taken down.

(Of course, I only threw in C because occasional knuckleheads somehow get that in their head. Perhaps more in the US as basketball and American football are both focussed on feet.)
 
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socal lurker said:
I asked because I have always been taught A, and the scenario @one posted is one of the reasons that I’ve always thought A has to be the right answer. But I read on another forum that IFAB had posted a question and said B on their Facebook page. But I went to their Facebook and don’t see it, so perhaps it was taken down.

(Of course, I only threw in C because occasional knuckleheads somehow get that in their head. Perhaps more in the US as basketball and American football are both focussed on feet.)
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And of course we use feet for penalty encroachment so it's a nice little banana skin. Good question
 
In reality it’s probably relatively irrelevant as the naked eye is unlikely to be able to tell the difference between A and B. But I also read the thing on IFABs socials saying B 🤣
 
"If the goalkeeper touches the ball with the hand/arm outside the penalty area it is a handball offence"

I hope this is just in relation to carrying the ball out because otherwise is egregiously wrong in law.
 
JamesL said:
"If the goalkeeper touches the ball with the hand/arm outside the penalty area it is a handball offence"

I hope this is just in relation to carrying the ball out because otherwise is egregiously wrong in law.
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Absolutely, although it does say above that 'outside their penalty area the goalkeeper has exactly the same restrictions on handling the ball as any other player' which obviously means normal handball laws apply. Poor choice of wording though.
 
I had always thought A on this question, but saw B on IFAB Facebook site. Dropped them an email to check. Here is their response:

Good morning

Thank you for your e mail and question.

If there is a point of contact between the goalkeeper’s hand and the ball outside the penalty area line then it would be an offence.

We hope this clarifies matters for you.

Best wishes

The IFAB

So B it is.
 
Dan56 said:
Thank you for your e mail and question.

If there is a point of contact between the goalkeeper’s hand and the ball outside the penalty area line then it would be an offence.

We hope this clarifies matters for you.

Best wishes
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What is the restart if the point of contact for the 'offence' is over the goal line near the post?

It's not the first time ifab has given not thought through advice on email or social media.
 
Screenshot_20240918-102856.png

I have done some digging and indeed I did write to IFAB in 2021 on a similar issue.

I think this interpretation feels right and is what football expects. I don't think the law is particularly clear on this matter. You could certainly argue parts of law either way, but it is not explicit.

one said:
One scenario that might sway some minds is consider the ball being part in PA and part outside of FOP over the goal line. If a defender (not Keeper) handles the part outside PA and pushes it back in, penalty right? Now if that is the keeper, how can that be handball. We can't have the cake and eat it too ☺️
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I've thought about this, a defender (not the GK) are still handling a ball that is in play, and offences committed off the field of play restart on the boundary, and if that boundary is the PA then penalty kick.

Which is where I think this differs, ever so slightly, from the goal keeper handling the part that's outside of the penalty area.

I'm sure you'll have a reasonable argument against this point of view but to me it's a logical distinction between the two situations.
 
JamesL said:
View attachment 7579

I have done some digging and indeed I did write to IFAB in 2021 on a similar issue.

I think this interpretation feels right and is what football expects. I don't think the law is particularly clear on this matter. You could certainly argue parts of law either way, but it is not explicit.


I've thought about this, a defender (not the GK) are still handling a ball that is in play, and offences committed off the field of play restart on the boundary, and if that boundary is the PA then penalty kick.

Which is where I think this differs, ever so slightly, from the goal keeper handling the part that's outside of the penalty area.

I'm sure you'll have a reasonable argument against this point of view but to me it's a logical distinction between the two situations.
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I am ok if we are consistent in approach. It's all well and good to give a simple answer that makesnsense to a non complex scenario. How about when it gets more complex. The question still stands though. What is the restart if the keeper commits the offence when the ball is partly in the PA and partly outside the FOP.? Did IFAB ever get back to you on the follow up email.
 
one said:
I am ok if we are consistent in approach. It's all well and good to give a simple answer that makesnsense to a non complex scenario. How about when it gets more complex. The question still stands though. What is the restart if the keeper commits the offence when the ball is partly in the PA and partly outside the FOP.?
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I'm not seeing the complexity here (well I kind of am) but I see a simple answer.

In your scenario I see no offence here because, the ball is in play within the Penalty area the GK can touch the ball outside the boundary as they have no restriction on handling the ball in the penalty area.
Different to a defender, if they do it they are handling a ball that they aren't allowed to handle (because it is in play) the offence is outside FOP but the restart is inside the FOP.

To put simply, the way I see it, the law sees the area outside the field of play as belonging to the area it is adjacent to when the ball is in play.
one said:
Did IFAB ever get back to you on the follow up email.
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That's the whole chain I posted above.
 
JamesL said:
In your scenario I see no offence here because, the ball is in play within the Penalty area the GK can touch the ball outside the boundary as they have no restriction on handling the ball in the penalty area.
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Now apply this same answer to the OP. This is the complexity I was talking about.

And my correspondence to IFAB is here (one of the first debates we had on the forum on this topic) : https://refchat.co.uk/threads/when-is-ball-inside-penalty-area-5-a-side.11573/post-116081
 
one said:
Now apply this same answer to the OP. This is the complexity I was talking about.

And my correspondence to IFAB is here (one of the first debates we had on the forum on this topic) : https://refchat.co.uk/threads/when-is-ball-inside-penalty-area-5-a-side.11573/post-116081
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And I come up with the same answer. I acknowledge the complexity, but I think we are over complicating it.

IF we move slightly away from handball for other direct free kick offences we use the point of contact. So the ball, 95% of the fouled player, can both be in the penalty area but if the point of contact is outside it's a direct free kick. The ball, 95% of the fouled player, can both be outside but the point of contact on the boundary line of the penalty area, it's a PK.
0.999999% of the ball, 100% of both players, offender and non offender can be outside field of play adjacent to the boundary of the PA and a PK is awarded.

Now bring that back to a handball offence, if GK touches the part of the ball outside the PA, inside the field of play - it's a direct free kick..if they touch the part of the ball outside the FOP but adjacent to the boundary of penalty area, that's fine because its still within an area where they can't commit a handball offence. Similarly if they touch the ball outside the field of play not adjacent to the penalty area then this is a handball offence.
 
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