The Ref Stop

Dissent

raf83

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Hello, would telling a ref to F*** Off twice be considered a sin bin offence or a straight red for "Use of offensive, insulting or abusive language" ?
 
The Ref Stop
Hello, would telling a ref to F*** Off twice be considered a sin bin offence or a straight red for "Use of offensive, insulting or abusive language" ?
You'll get a variety of opinions on this.
For me, it would likely be a sin bin offence (or a dissent caution if sin bins aren't applicable) but a lot depends on context and how public it was.
Many will say it's a straight red. Some will say it depends on age, if it's kids they'd be issuing a red card but open age maybe a sin bin etc.
This is all in the opinion of the referee.
 
I think context is key here.

Saying "**** off ref" can be done in a couple of way for me. One gets a definite red and the other gets nothing but a wry smile.

The latter needs to be a question. It's almost a despairing plea for understanding. Imagine drawing out the oooooffff and stick a question mark at the end. Perhaps add "really?" at the end too.

The former is directed and aggressive. OFFINABUS.

It's not easy.
 
Thank you. To give clarity to my question, not thinking of a question type scenario, but when its abusive / offence.
 
Saying "**** off ref" can be done in a couple of way for me. One gets a definite red and the other gets nothing but a wry smile.
So you are saying it's never dissent / a sin bin? 🙂

For me I don't think I could ever bring myself to send off for it, in isolation (unless I was told categorically by the FA it had to be). But I would always support those that do send off, ultimately if the are offended, insulted or feel abused by it it's not for me to say otherwise.
I've said on here many times I must use the phrase a 100 times a day in many different contexts so it would be hypocritical to suddenly feel offended/abused/insulted by it.
 
Hello, would telling a ref to F*** Off twice be considered a sin bin offence or a straight red for "Use of offensive, insulting or abusive language" ?
For me, (as I've said on this subject in the past) it's as @JamesL has put it above.

If the words are directed at you then how did it make YOU feel?

If the answer is offended, insulted or abused - then you have your answer already. ;)
 
Thank you. To give clarity to my question, not thinking of a question type scenario, but when its abusive / offence.
I think you've answered your own question here. If it's abusive or offensive.... Red.
 
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Hello, would telling a ref to F*** Off twice be considered a sin bin offence or a straight red for "Use of offensive, insulting or abusive language" ?

Thank you. To give clarity to my question, not thinking of a question type scenario, but when its abusive / offence.
Your second post pretty much answered your first post.

One size does not fit all though. A lot to consider that is not just a bout the words used. In my games, they would be sin bin more often than red.
 
So you are saying it's never dissent / a sin bin?
Oh you pedant! I was giving the two extremes.

Going back to the the earlier comments, I'd probably give a sin bin more frequently than a red for this.

I did have a cup game last year where similar phrases were said to me. One did get a red and the other did get the wry smile. I did have to explain that its about 'how' it is said as much as what is said.
 
Thanks all. Helpful to read the responses. Tipping point (to abuse / offensive and a red) for me was the second F Off (delivered when I was reaching for the Yellow / Sin Bin).
 
Thanks all. Helpful to read the responses. Tipping point (to abuse / offensive and a red) for me was the second F Off (delivered when I was reaching for the Yellow / Sin Bin).
The same happened in my example above. He upgraded to red from a sin bin. What a silly billy.
 
So you are saying it's never dissent / a sin bin? 🙂

For me I don't think I could ever bring myself to send off for it, in isolation (unless I was told categorically by the FA it had to be). But I would always support those that do send off, ultimately if the are offended, insulted or feel abused by it it's not for me to say otherwise.
I've said on here many times I must use the phrase a 100 times a day in many different contexts so it would be hypocritical to suddenly feel offended/abused/insulted by it.

Your response was thought-provoking @JamesL . Does this bring us onto a secondary question... do tolerance levels have to adapt as we, as refs, progress through the levels? I notice you're a L3.

I have absolutely no doubt I'd be dismissing a player at grassroots level if they told me to F-off.

I was recently a spectator at a National League South game; I found the way the benches spoke/shouted at the fourth official and ref to be a bit of an eye-opener. I'm sure I wouldn't tolerate it in a county cup R1 game!

Did your tolerance levels adapt as you progressed?
 
This stems from the very top level. How often do we see it in televised games. No lip reading expertise is needed to see "f... off" regularly being aimed at an official.
The higher the level - the higher the threshold seems to be, though I know of no direct advice on the subject.
At grassroots level, the same player getting away with telling the Ref to "F... off" twice, is heading towards a major development, in my opinion.
It's also likely to be creating a problem for the next referee.
 
Your response was thought-provoking @JamesL . Does this bring us onto a secondary question... do tolerance levels have to adapt as we, as refs, progress through the levels? I notice you're a L3.

I have absolutely no doubt I'd be dismissing a player at grassroots level if they told me to F-off.

I was recently a spectator at a National League South game; I found the way the benches spoke/shouted at the fourth official and ref to be a bit of an eye-opener. I'm sure I wouldn't tolerate it in a county cup R1 game!

Did your tolerance levels adapt as you progressed?
Not really... I've always adopted a similar approach as described.
 
So you are saying it's never dissent / a sin bin? 🙂

For me I don't think I could ever bring myself to send off for it, in isolation (unless I was told categorically by the FA it had to be). But I would always support those that do send off, ultimately if the are offended, insulted or feel abused by it it's not for me to say otherwise.
I've said on here many times I must use the phrase a 100 times a day in many different contexts so it would be hypocritical to suddenly feel offended/abused/insulted by it.
If being assessed should you send off?
 
I think context is key here.

Saying "**** off ref" can be done in a couple of way for me. One gets a definite red and the other gets nothing but a wry smile.

The latter needs to be a question. It's almost a despairing plea for understanding. Imagine drawing out the oooooffff and stick a question mark at the end. Perhaps add "really?" at the end too.

The former is directed and aggressive. OFFINABUS.

It's not easy.
This explains it entirely.

Up until the last few years i would go red regardless.

In the last 5 years or so i've used the "did you tell me to f off" line. If they say yes then i send off if they say no i respond "i think we understand each other.
 
I thought the assessor would mark you down for not sending off.
Depending on how it was said I might well go the other way. "F**k off ref" can be said and meant in different ways, if said in a fairly soft voice it can almost be said as a question, as in are you sure ref. Equally it can be said with pure aggression and that is when I would be starting to think red, but there are multiple levels between these two examples.

I don't think there are many observers these days that would mark you down for not sending off for it, at least not unless it was on the extreme side. I'd want to see it dealt with and not ignored, but that doesn't necessarily mean a red card.
 
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