First red card

[norfolkref]

Phew where to start....

I officiated a fixture yesterday in the U14 League 1 division of the local combined youth league

This game was fraught with issues, specifically on the home side.

The game was largely unremarkable, apart from a sin-bin for Player 6 in the first half of the game. Time served to 10 minutes playing time. Admittedly I think I have got this wrong, and it should be 8 minutes given U14 play 35 halves. Unfortunately this was met with shouts from coaching staff as the player spent nearly double this time off the pitch, as you know sin-bin is time served during play and not when the ball is out of play. They were audibly setting alarms on their phones, and pointing to the watch saying time is up. There were, at times during the game comments made which I could hear regarding my match fee - as I was not paid until after the game, comments suggesting they weren't going to be paying it, all of which I think fuelled the same behaviour and comments by the players.

In the second half there was a call for a penalty that I waived away. As the away team were then on a promising attack, the home player 22 runs past me turns and says "****ing obvious handball, you've ****ing missed that ref".

At the next break in play I have then issued a red card for S6. Managers are then on the pitch again questioning decisions, pointing at the watch saying about additional time. This made the remainder of the game particularly difficult to officiate, and I certainly think there was a strong possibility the game could have been abandoned. There was widespread dissent among the WLW team, Number 9 at the restart telling me "You've had a howler ref".

At full-time, the coach in question comes onto the pitch and argues that I ruined the game, made it all about myself, that I was smiling when I issued the red card, and had it out for the home side from the start. All baseless claims. He went on full-time regarding the card saying how this was dissent and not offensive/insulting/abusive behaviour. He reiterated this point several times, trying to justify the comparison in adult football. As I was leaving, he commented saying how it wasn't necessary for me to report him to the FA or the League as in his eyes he hadn't been abusive in any way. Whilst I agree it wasn't abusive, it undermined my authority as referee and I considered it to be insulting at least.

You know, I drove 80 miles roundtrip for this. Came off the pitch thinking why do we do this week in week out to be lectured by Mourinho wannabes? To be told 'oh i bet you feel good giving a red card to a 14 year old.... Reflection, I got the call bang on right and will always have these few games that throw me off!

Have had to fill in my first extraordinary report, on top of countless emails this morning to League and CFA.

NOT how I thought my first red card would go..

 

[Runner Ref]

First of all, well done for taking a stand against what you saw as OFFINABUS.

What can you learn? Make sure you're aware of laws/comp rules around things like sin bin. Its a genuine error, but if you give clubs an inch, they'll take a mile.

If you're going to issue a red card, I wouldn't be waiting until the next break in play.

But its all part of the learning curve!

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

You may also consider whether a card for the manager would have been appropriate, either during or after the game. Sounds as though he deserved one.

 

[The Gump]

Firstly, well done on being willing to issue a RC at U14s - all too often last week's ref won't at this age group. OFFINABUS is in your view, and if you deemed the comments OFFINABUS then RC it is. I don't think there's any issue with having a lower tolerance for dissent/OFFINABUS at younger ages and whilst others might have YC/Sin Binned for dissent, it doesn't mean you were wrong.

You've reflected on the Sin Bin error but it sounds like it didn't impact the result? Still, we learn more from things that don't go well than do and being on here, sharing your experiences and reflecting are all good signs.

As @ChasObserverRefDeveloper says, sounds like the coach deserved a card, and possibly RC too as it reads like he entered the FOP to protest your decision(s).

It may be your first EA but it won't be your last. Games like this pop up every now and again but hopefully you'll soon have another one that reminds you of why we do it, as opposed to thinking why we bother.

 

[socal lurker]

The game was largely unremarkable, apart from a sin-bin for Player 6 in the first half of the game. Time served to 10 minutes playing time. Admittedly I think I have got this wrong, and it should be 8 minutes given U14 play 35 halves. Unfortunately this was met with shouts from coaching staff as the player spent nearly double this time off the pitch, as you know sin-bin is time served during play and not when the ball is out of play. They were audibly setting alarms on their phones, and pointing to the watch saying time is up. There were, at times during the game comments made which I could hear regarding my match fee - as I was not paid until after the game, comments suggesting they weren't going to be paying it, all of which I think fuelled the same behaviour and comments by the players.

Hmm. “ as you know sin-bin is time served during play and not when the ball is out of play.” As written, that isn’t actually right, is it? Isn’t it time excluding delays tht will result in added time? As written it sounds like you’re stopping your “sin bin time” every time there is a TI or FK. That isn’t right, is it? (I don’t do sin bins, so I could be missing something.)

 

[ARF]

Hmm. “ as you know sin-bin is time served during play and not when the ball is out of play.” As written, that isn’t actually right, is it? Isn’t it time excluding delays tht will result in added time? As written it sounds like you’re stopping your “sin bin time” every time there is a TI or FK. That isn’t right, is it? (I don’t do sin bins, so I could be missing something.)

You've beaten me to it!

Yes, as @socal lurker has pointed out, the watch isn't stopped every time the ball goes out of play, only if there is a delay that would mean adding time at the end of the half - the same logic applies for sin bin timings.

 

[Gamespoiler]

As you get older and more experienced, you will learn to appreciate the more challenging games and be drawn towards them. You'll also learn to nip things in the bud earlier and manage the adults more effectively. Don't be put off by it

 

[one]

If you're going to issue a red card, I wouldn't be waiting until the next break in play.

Unless the opponents have a goal scoring opportunity. But I think you knew that

@suffolkref well done for getting through a tough game. You learn a lot more from them than the easy ones. Plenty of good posts and advice above. What the player said is somewhere in the middle in terms of referees finding it offensive or dissent. Many referees would only look at it as dissent. But if you found it to be offensive then you have every right to red card it. The general rule of thumb for most referees is, if the swearing is directed at you, like "you f**" then it's a red. If it is about a decision or things in general, like "that was f***" then it is dissent.

 

[JamesL]

Unless the opponents have a goal scoring opportunity. But I think you knew that

@suffolkref well done for getting through a tough game. You learn a lot more from them than the easy ones. Plenty of good posts and advice above. What the player said is somewhere in the middle in terms of referees finding it offensive or dissent. Many referees would only look at it as dissent. But if you found it to be offensive then you have every right to red card it. The general rule of thumb for most referees is, if the swearing is directed at you, like "you f**" then it's a red. If it is about a decision or things in general, like "that was f***" then it is dissent.

Obviously take care to not say that's 30s 10 times and then only add 4 minutes on.

 

[norfolkref]

Unless the opponents have a goal scoring opportunity. But I think you knew that

@suffolkref well done for getting through a tough game. You learn a lot more from them than the easy ones. Plenty of good posts and advice above. What the player said is somewhere in the middle in terms of referees finding it offensive or dissent. Many referees would only look at it as dissent. But if you found it to be offensive then you have every right to red card it. The general rule of thumb for most referees is, if the swearing is directed at you, like "you f**" then it's a red. If it is about a decision or things in general, like "that was f***" then it is dissent.

so this is what I said after the game to the coach. That the player has chosen to run past me, turn and say rather than run past and try win the ball back. If it doesnt have the swearing then I can argue for dissent or a strong warning, but because he's sworn at me it meets offinabus. Obviously this decision has blown up off the pitch which is why CFA have been involved.

thankfully my CFA RDO is easy to talk to, and the first person I called after the game. Going forward I can add to coaches that I would be happy to discuss decisions at full time or in the changing room, but not being bleated at from 30 yards.

in terms of sin bins, i have been told and checked competition rules and it is active playing time. I would argue the ball out of play in a hedge is not active playing time?

 

[one]

Obviously take care to not say that's 30s 10 times and then only add 4 minutes on.

Huh?

(I know what you did)

 

[ARF]

in terms of sin bins, i have been told and checked competition rules and it is active playing time. I would argue the ball out of play in a hedge is not active playing time?

Active playing time is any time where the watch isn't stopped/where there's a delay that will result in time being added at the end of the half. Watch a rugby game on TV - the timer for a sin bin will continue to count down even if the ball goes out of play or the referee stops play. It's only if the referee calls 'time off' that the sin bin clock stops too. It's exactly the same for us.

 

[Kes]

so this is what I said after the game to the coach. That the player has chosen to run past me, turn and say rather than run past and try win the ball back. If it doesnt have the swearing then I can argue for dissent or a strong warning, but because he's sworn at me it meets offinabus. Obviously this decision has blown up off the pitch which is why CFA have been involved.

Just a bit of minor advice - don't get too caught up in the "swearing" aspect of it all. Swearing/profanitiy is not an offence in and of itself. If the words are used in an OFFINABUS manner then yes, but moreover, if any words (or gestures) used at you made you feel offended, insulted or abused, then you've every right to show the red.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

so this is what I said after the game to the coach. That the player has chosen to run past me, turn and say rather than run past and try win the ball back. If it doesnt have the swearing then I can argue for dissent or a strong warning, but because he's sworn at me it meets offinabus. Obviously this decision has blown up off the pitch which is why CFA have been involved.

thankfully my CFA RDO is easy to talk to, and the first person I called after the game. Going forward I can add to coaches that I would be happy to discuss decisions at full time or in the changing room, but not being bleated at from 30 yards.

in terms of sin bins, i have been told and checked competition rules and it is active playing time. I would argue the ball out of play in a hedge is not active playing time?

Competition rules should/must follow what the Laws of the Game say:
"The referee should include in the temporary dismissal period any time ‘lost’ for a stoppage for which ‘additional time’ will be allowed at the end of the half (e.g. substitution, injury, goal celebration, etc.)"

 

[The Gump]

Competition rules should/must follow what the Laws of the Game say:
"The referee should include in the temporary dismissal period any time ‘lost’ for a stoppage for which ‘additional time’ will be allowed at the end of the half (e.g. substitution, injury, goal celebration, etc.)"

That was always my understanding, and is how RefSix (which I find particularly handy for sin-bins, with a written down back-up) calculates the time. If this wasn't the case, teams could feign an injury and time-consuming period of treatment on the pitch.

 

[Homer Ref]

I think many forget that this is a 13-14 year old. Impressionable and liable to be very much against any authoritative figures like us. It really doesn't in my view, help to send someone this age off for OFFINABUS unless it is about protected characteristics or slurs. They see it and hear this behaviour in most games they watch on telly or even when watching brothers/sisters playing football. Over 16 though and they know the consequences of what they are doing or saying. What is more they will be more prone to knowing the limits of what they can and cannot say. There will always be the one player who will continually question your decisions and complain when they don't get any for themselves or their team. It is difficult when you feel disrespected and you do want to give red cards because you think they deserve it, but then you are making it about you and not the LOTG. I would have chatted to the players concerned and just warned them that they were flying close. I am a year in, and still want to react and still take it personally. But teenagers will always be a challenge.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

I think many forget that this is a 13-14 year old. Impressionable and liable to be very much against any authoritative figures like us. It really doesn't in my view, help to send someone this age off for OFFINABUS unless it is about protected characteristics or slurs. They see it and hear this behaviour in most games they watch on telly or even when watching brothers/sisters playing football. Over 16 though and they know the consequences of what they are doing or saying. What is more they will be more prone to knowing the limits of what they can and cannot say. There will always be the one player who will continually question your decisions and complain when they don't get any for themselves or their team. It is difficult when you feel disrespected and you do want to give red cards because you think they deserve it, but then you are making it about you and not the LOTG. I would have chatted to the players concerned and just warned them that they were flying close. I am a year in, and still want to react and still take it personally. But teenagers will always be a challenge.

Whilst understanding the points you make, a player that age needs to know what is acceptable. Sadly, the acceptance of language has changed because a generation of referees have chosen to ignore it or treat it as dissent to avoid sending players off.
Last weekend (as a dog walker/passer-by) I saw and heard a player in an Under-14 game become heated after an opponent won the ball fairly. The lad turned to the referee (male, probably in his 40's), ran 8-10 metres towards him, and shouted "You're f*****g useless, referee, didn't you see that?"
Response from the referee: "Calm down, lad". Restarted with a throw in and no further action.
That to me is unacceptable.

 

[The Gump]

I think many forget that this is a 13-14 year old. Impressionable and liable to be very much against any authoritative figures like us. It really doesn't in my view, help to send someone this age off for OFFINABUS unless it is about protected characteristics or slurs. They see it and hear this behaviour in most games they watch on telly or even when watching brothers/sisters playing football. Over 16 though and they know the consequences of what they are doing or saying. What is more they will be more prone to knowing the limits of what they can and cannot say. There will always be the one player who will continually question your decisions and complain when they don't get any for themselves or their team. It is difficult when you feel disrespected and you do want to give red cards because you think they deserve it, but then you are making it about you and not the LOTG. I would have chatted to the players concerned and just warned them that they were flying close. I am a year in, and still want to react and still take it personally. But teenagers will always be a challenge.

I’d be amazed if any of us take pleasure in issuing cards at any level, particularly at younger age groups, and there won’t be many of us that at times don’t “manage” incidents that, by law, ought to result in a sanction, especially in youth football.

However, whilst for me personally the OP incident would have been a dissent sin bin caution, I disagree really strongly with you that using sanctions at U14 is making it “about you”. As a parent I see too many referees refuse to use cards and I can assure you it’s detrimental to the kids and the wider game and there’s nothing more frustrating.

It’s one thing to not issue a YC to a kid who kicks the ball away after the whistle when there’s 5 minutes left, one team is winning early and the match has been played/coached/watched in a great spirit. It’s another to not deal appropriately with dissent, bad tackles or any other behaviour that deserves the appropriate sanction.

It’s less about a referee making it all about them by doing so, and more about the consequences of being last week’s ref by not.

 

[norfolkref]

I appreciate some of the views/comments on this, I think it's particularly helpful for others, not only me to go into future games. For context this has happened 15 games in this season, 20 including my 'first 5'.

So I can see both sides of the argument here. So this league, NCYFL typically get a lot of youth referees, this was a U14 fixture so most referees would be 15-16, and from time spent with teams I've done, it becomes apparent they don't issue any cards and therefore don't really hold any say on the game.

But on the other hand, I've got to have some authority. This is a player who, rather than get back and defend with their team makes a decision to run towards me and swear about a decision that, if I haven't seen I can't give. If I give a yellow there, I'm essentially saying its acceptable to be spoken to like that, because it's only worth a YC. Does next weeks ref then get the same treatment?

I've not asked the player for their opinion on a decision, I've also not made them swear at me - you know, someone who is 13/14 I would expect them to know better, would they speak to their parent or teacher like this, it should not be any different. If he says to me "ref, you've missed that" probably just say, I didn't see it, I cant give it. If he's going on saying "oh you're blind, Stevie wonder could've seen that", probably a very strong warning or a sin bin depending on the heat of the game, but as I've said above he chooses to run alongside me, the score is 3-2 and tells me I've ****ing missed it.

A point from comments above, at no point was it taken personally. I can't think like that, it's simply the authority figure they disagree with.

 

[one]

But on the other hand, I've got to have some authority. This is a player who, rather than get back and defend with their team makes a decision to run towards me and swear about a decision that, if I haven't seen I can't give. If I give a yellow there, I'm essentially saying its acceptable to be spoken to like that, because it's only worth a YC. Does next weeks ref then get the same treatment?

This bit I diagree with. In my view to send a player off you must have the send off criteria met, in this case OFFINABUS. Match control or settung examples don't qualify as reasons for red card, though I do use them for yellow card within reason.