A&H

World Cup VAR

At the RA conference the Hawkeye spokesman said the 2D system was flawed for offside, as it couldn't deal with the upper body position very well. They have a 3D-esque version that accounts for that issue but as of Sunday they weren't sure which system was going to be used. The 3D graphic had 3 lines on it, and they felt it might confuse viewers.
 
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But how long is the cut off after you keep the flag down, by not flagging your changing the course of play.

So say you keep the flag down & 10 seconds later a goal is scored are we checking that original close offside call that half the stadium & whole back four screamed for.

Can you imagine a Spain back four sticking there arm up Ramos Pique etc for offside the Lino keeps it down & then 10-15 sec’s later after the ball is cleared the opposition score.

Ramos & co will go mental, both the players and officials need to be clear how long the cut off is before VAR & any offside prior to a goal being scored is deemed dead.

They won't flag at all from that point. If the phase of play leads to a goal it will be reviewed to see if there was indeed offside, that will result in either a goal or an IDFK. If it leads to nothing then nothing will happen.

I really think you are making a lot more to this than there actually is, and again you are looking at it more as a player than a referee.
 
They won't flag at all from that point. If the phase of play leads to a goal it will be reviewed to see if there was indeed offside, that will result in either a goal or an IDFK. If it leads to nothing then nothing will happen.

I really think you are making a lot more to this than there actually is, and again you are looking at it more as a player than a referee.

Probably right because as a player if I’m 100% certain a striker is off & stick my hand up to Lino & get no response for 90 mins how am I meant to feel, if my defence then get the ball clear on a particular occasion & from the next phase of play or 5-10 secs later the oppo score I would lose my sh*t, especially if after the game a manager see’s on replay the original attack was clearly offside.

Any close call is going with attacker every single time & if no goal is scored they can reload and go again, just don’t get when the defence is ever gonna get there idfk for a close offside call unless a goal is scored & later proved to be off by VAR.

Idfk for a close offside in real time will be a thing of the past.
 
Probably right because as a player if I’m 100% certain a striker is off & stick my hand up to Lino & get no response for 90 mins how am I meant to feel, if my defence then get the ball clear on a particular occasion & from the next phase of play or 5-10 secs later the oppo score I would lose my sh*t, especially if after the game a manager see’s on replay the original attack was clearly offside.

Any close call is going with attacker every single time & if no goal is scored they can reload and go again, just don’t get when the defence is ever gonna get there idfk for a close offside call unless a goal is scored & later proved to be off by VAR.

Idfk for a close offside in real time will be a thing of the past.

If the original attack was offside then you don't need to worry as a defender as it will be VAR reviewed.

But, and I repeat myself, this is a referee forum and people on here will think as referees not players. I played as a centre half or full back so I know all about offside traps, and I'm not sure I would want to play with the current offside law, but it is what it is.
 
If the original attack was offside then you don't need to worry as a defender as it will be VAR reviewed.

But, and I repeat myself, this is a referee forum and people on here will think as referees not players. I played as a centre half or full back so I know all about offside traps, and I'm not sure I would want to play with the current offside law, but it is what it is.

Indeed I think I’ve said enough I’m giving myself a headache now let’s just see how it goes.

It may all go completely fine no arguments with refs & linos on the pitch no confusion around the world & all the decisions given correctly, I’ll look a complete numpty then & not for the first time.
 
I've deleted the last four posts as they were in no way relevant to the topic. At the risk of repeating myself, if you want to have personal chats use the PM function, if you reply to the thread it must relate to the topic.
 
The average match will contains less than 60 mins of in play football.
In last years World Cup final a free kick took over 1min 30 seconds... faffing about for throw ins, goalkicks, corners and subs.... loses 1/3rd of the match...
I can live with the delays that VAR will cause... because there will be a conscious decision to add this time back on...

Sorry just thinking out loud...

Also find it amusing that FIFA delegates - the men in the van - have been told they must wear there kit 🙄😂🤣😂

Sorry, it’s late and I’m thinking out loud... 🙄
 
The quote from Collina was "They were told to keep the flag down when there is a tight offside incident and there could be a very promising attack or a goal-scoring opportunity because if the assistant referee raises the flag then everything is finished,"
I find this to be such a perversion of VAR. it's not why it was introduced. Telling AR's to DELIBERATELY make an error so VAR can review it later is completely messed up.

i've heard we had the same instruction in Australia. Heard it via commentators so who knows what's actually been said, but we're all pretty well convinced that both referees and AR's have been avoiding tough decisions and using the VAR as a crutch.
I've raised this before, but it's directly relevant here:
Our grand final was decided by one goal, about 9 minutes in. Player, offside from a free kick, scored a goal (or set one up, doesn't matter). Wasn't a particularly difficult offside, but it would seem likely that the AR has chosen to keep the flag down and depend on the VAR.
Too bad that the Hawkye software had problems and the feed went missing.
So it didn't get reviewed. And that won the grand final.
This idea of 'let VAR sort out the offside' is the height of stupidity. Yet more evidence that the idiots running this game don't understand it in the slightest.
You don't WANT goals to be scored then disallowed. VAR is changing football fan culture because you can't celebrate a goal anymore, and by the time you know it's a goal...well, the excitement is half passed. FIFA are saying they actively want more goals awarded then denied? Get a clue.

But what about the offsides that are let go that don't directly lead to a goal? This stupid, dodgy approach by FIFA is actually going to CAUSE goals to be scored off incorrectly let go offsides. It's actually going to CAUSE match-changing errors.

Just because an offside is tight, doesn't mean you're not certain. There might be inches in it and you have no doubt. Or there might be a few feet in it - or worse - and you've just missed the key moment or were slightly out of position and have no idea.

There's already a misconception among fans of what 'benefit of the doubt to the attack' means. I've seen way too many idiots argue before VAR that 'yeah, I can see on TV that he was JUST offside but it wasn't by much, so he should have had benefit of the doubt, so the goal should have stood'.

Disturbingly, those people also vote....but anyway.

FIFA's directive here is actually going away from 'keep your flag down if you're not sure' and saying 'only call the blatant ones'. Look like the idiots that misunderstand 'benefit of the doubt' (note that there's no such thing as benefit of the doubt to the attack - it's 'benefit of the doubt always lies with not stopping play') are now correct.

So now AR's are having to change their game to 'well, it's definitely offside, but not by much...is it offside by enough? Crap, am I meant to call this one?'.

I don't see how Poll's comments can be read any other way. He's quite clearly saying that AR's are being told to keep their flag down and let the VAR sort it out later when there could be a promising attack. And really, any through ball would qualify as a promising attack.
But most promising attacks don't lead directly to a goal.

I think @Men in Black is right in his concern here. It's completely messed up and a distortion of the job of the officials and a big step away from the initial purpose of the VAR.

And yet Collina is clearly saying to hold the flag and rely on the VAR. Delaying the flag isn't new. Not flagging because somebody else can figure it out is. And that's what Collina is saying the instructions are.
 
And that's what Collina is saying the instructions are.

I very much doubt that is true. I think Collina did a poor job explaining about delaying the flag and it came across as referees being told not to flag. It was a press conference. He wasn't going to dive into the details of how and when ARs should hold flags down. He was in the middle of answering stupid questions from the press that ranged from "what do you think of Spanish referees?" and "what characteristics does Pitana have to assign him to the opener?"

Collina was not slipping in a revolutionary change to AR mechanics two days before the World Cup.
 
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but it would seem likely that the AR has chosen to keep the flag down and depend on the VAR.
The AR DID in fact think it was offside but kept his flag down on prior instructions. (from a reliable source)

Australia was very poor in implementing VAR. This was just another example of it. There were many other cases early on which were obvious they were not following protocol.

I think in the World cup they would follow proper protocol and as @cwyeary said Collina just did a poor job of explaining it.
 
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I very much doubt that is true. I think Collina did a poor job explaining about delaying the flag and it came across as referees being told not to flag. It was a press conference. He wasn't going to dive into the details of how and when ARs should hold flags down. He was in the middle of answering stupid questions from the press that ranged from "what do you think of Spanish referees?" and "what characteristics does Pitana have to assign him to the opener?"

Collina was not slipping in a revolutionary change to AR mechanics two days before the World Cup.
If you doubt it's true then you have a lot of faith in FIFA in not doing something stupid.

It's literally what Collina said. If you disbelieve it, then that's based on faith. So far, the only evidence we have is that's what's going to happen.
Supporting evidence is that we have apparently had that instruction in Australia. Now, based on hearsay, yes - but again, as supporting evidence, the actions of ARs across a number of games actually seem to support this instruction.

So, Collina's words are actually in line with how VAR is already being implemented in at least one country.

We're not talking about interpreting something not said. He actually said

"They were told to keep the flag down when there is a tight offside incident and there could be a very promising attack or a goal-scoring opportunity because if the assistant referee raises the flag then everything is finished," he said.

"If the assistant referee keeps the flag down and the play goes on and maybe a goal comes at the end, there is a chance to review the goal using the technology."


If it was the old 'hold your flag until you're sure' instruction', then he would have said so - or not even said it, because everyone knows that one. If it was the case that if it's a tight offside and a goal is scored immediately then to depend on the VAR, then he would have said so (even though that directly breaches the LOTG). He's said something quite clear here.
 
The AR DID in fact think it was offside but kept his flag down on prior instructions. (from a reliable source)

Then he shouldn't referee professional matches. If he thought it was offside he would have been completely justified to raise the flag after the goal was scored.
 
Then he shouldn't referee professional matches. If he thought it was offside he would have been completely justified to raise the flag after the goal was scored.
The VAR implementation seems to have been somewhat different to the standard IFAB one. I don't know if they tried to simplify it or it was just out of ignorance. Nonetheless I wouldn't blame the AR for following the guideline given to him.
 
I guess we'll find out in the first few days. If FIFA AR's start missing five offside decisions every match then we'll know you're onto something.

But what we'll probably see is the typical excellent offside decisions from ARs with the occasional missed call in the midfield or near the touch lines.

Assistant referees are not coming to the World Cup to deliberately make mistakes. They all want to get knockout stage games. If it becomes clear that you and MiB are right after a week or so then I'll admit it on here. But I very much doubt I'll need to do that.
 
Then he shouldn't referee professional matches. If he thought it was offside he would have been completely justified to raise the flag after the goal was scored.
Problem is, if he's been told to rely on the VAR, then by the time he finds out the VAR feed has gone down, at least a minute or two has passed.

I agree that the referee should have been advised that there's no replay available, and he should then go over to the AR to have a chat. They could still have made a decision.

Another problem we've seen with VAR is that it's done away with good old fashioned teamwork. So many incidents that SHOULD have been picked up by an AR/4th, and resulted in discussion with that official and the ref, are now left to the referee standing around awkwardly with NFI what's happening while the VAR looks at something.
What made our grand final incident even worse was that it was the Hawkeye software that failed/crashed and lost the feed.

The offside was so clear that you could see it on a normal TV replay even without a virtual line.
 
Probably right because as a player if I’m 100% certain a striker is off & stick my hand up to Lino & get no response for 90 mins how am I meant to feel, if my defence then get the ball clear on a particular occasion & from the next phase of play or 5-10 secs later the oppo score I would lose my sh*t, especially if after the game a manager see’s on replay the original attack was clearly offside.

Any close call is going with attacker every single time & if no goal is scored they can reload and go again, just don’t get when the defence is ever gonna get there idfk for a close offside call unless a goal is scored & later proved to be off by VAR.

Idfk for a close offside in real time will be a thing of the past.

If you want to look at it as a player (which we shouldn't be on a refereeing forum really), think of it from the perspective of the attacker, or even as a supporter. Striker gets played in on goal and the lino raises his flag. Players tend to have a quick glance across to see so they would immediately stop playing. Imagine that it was a tight offside call and he was marginally onside.

Using that as a scenario I think this is a good thing for the tournament. Striker still gets the opportunity and then it gets reviewed. If defenders want to run around sticking their hands in the air and start looking around for a call even though they are likely to be briefed on this then that's their problem.

We are basing this on a couple of lines from a press conference. Maybe referee's have been briefed on a timescale for review? We shouldn't really shout it down until there's been confirmation
 
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