A&H

Junior/Youth Too soft on dissent; problems come home to roost

S

SLI39

Well-Known Member
Hi all,

A familiar situation, where most of my issues came from not punishing ill discipline early enough in an intense match. I'm not sure why I have such a problem with this; maybe I assume I can control everything above board and without cards, but such an approach very often comes back to bite you.

The facts of the game are as follows:
Yellows vs. Reds, U14s
Reds, playing with ten men away from home, take a two goal lead. Some excellent football suggests a gulf in class.
However, all turns on a goal back late in the first half for yellows from an IDFK I gave for a back pass in the box. Not much contact, but enough, and from behind I discern an intention to return it to the keeper.

Early second half--penalty for yellows after contact, but forward stays on his feet. This combination causes hostility towards me from this point forward. Persecution complex starts to infect coach as well.
One comment questioning my integrity first half and a couple more in the second; all behind my back unfortunately and things along the lines of "away refs are always bad because they're paid extra". I manage to calm captain down shortly afterwards, but still no card.

2-2 final score
I let the away coaches know after FT that these insinuations were unacceptable and that the team should be aware for future games, but no specific players identified. Should I report these comments to FA/league even though I didn't mention further action post-match?
A few more sarcastic handshakes as I left the pitch and complaints that I'd blown up when they'd still had a chance from a half-cleared corner. Admittedly a good team, but very hard to like.

I felt I had got all the major decisions right for a good hour (each one on individual merit and according to what I'd seen), but failure to control behaviour scrambled my head and my performance deteriorated in the last ten. This shows again the importance of dealing with dissent.

Anyway, on to next week (at least these matches don't plague me like they used to!).
 
The Referee Store
If you can't identify the players who made the comments, and didn't take any action against them at the time of them making them, then I can't see how you can decide after the game to go back and submit them as misconduct.

As to the penalty incident....what did the forward do after staying on his feet? DId he get a shot off at goal? Did you give things a couple of seconds to develop?
 
I waited maybe a short instant, mainly in surprise that he hadn't appealed or gone down. I think he was still in possession when I blew for the foul, but I'm not entirely sure.
As for the comments, I understand that it's difficult now. I regret not making more effort to identify and penalise the offenders at the time, as I couldn't point out any of them to the away manager.
My brother, and presumably parents, heard further comments to which I was not privy, so the team could perhaps be reported by a third party.
 
I'm curious to hear more about the penalty - what happened exactly?

Also, you managed to calm the captain down - what do you mean? What did you catch him doing/saying?

Dissent is tricky when it's behind your back.
So how can you stop it being behind your back?
Get wider so you have more peripheral vision. Glance back at the players as a ball is being cleared out (but so you're not missing anything forwards) to try and catch them in the act.
Can you at least get a rough idea of who said it? Most likely just 2-3 players. You should be able to try to narrow it down and keep an eye on that player.
Finally, grab what you can. come down like a ton of bricks on ANY dissent you do catch. IMO, come down harder than you normally would - making an example out of somebody just might do the job. If it doesn't....well I'm not sympathetic to any player who is dumb enough to get 2 yellows for dissent.
Anything even hinting at your integrity or 'away refs are always bad' is going to be a card, not a warning.

As for the manager - deal with them early. At this level in particular they're going to influence the players. If they're mouthing off, so will the players.

I personally wouldn't have had the conversation with the managers at FT - all you're doing is inviting an argument. But I guess you can make that judgement on how they've approached you but if they were mouthing off as well then it suggests they're not going to take that comment kindly. So be aware that you may find yourself starting a situation that results in you reporting the manager if he argues with you.

Also - moving forwards - when you're on the pitch and you feel like you've dropped the ball - what are you going to change to keep your focus?

My technique was to 'go to my happy place' (seen Happy Gilmore?). For a few moments, put myself somewhere where I feel better and feel positive. Doing my hobby. Getting ready to go out. Drinks with friends. Whatever makes me feel good, positive and relaxed. Go there for a few moments and let that energy wash over you. Helps me recentre.
 
Thanks, some useful ideas there.
Penalty was really quite straightforward: Right winger cuts inside, gets tripped in the box by defender, but continues for maybe a stride before I blow whistle. In dealing with the defender, I actually mentioned the fact that I had no intention of punishing someone for staying on their feet. But I would say that henceforth the away team questioned every decision vigorously due to a feeling of bias.
I believe, as you say, it requires me to be more savvy, as it shouldn't be so hard to identify wrongdoers. Unfortunately, the captain marginally got away with the stepped approach and wasn't one of the players who implied I was biased.

As for manager, maybe my first post exaggerated a little. I remember one incident where he accused me of not giving them anything, and towards the end shouting for an off-the-ball check when I saw it as children coming together a bit clumsily--insufficient for foul.

He was actually quite welcoming of my comments at FT; he didn't rehash any decisions. No argument, and he agreed such behaviour was intolerable. I thought it would be irresponsible not to mention that these 13 year-olds were flirting with red cards, and I would have felt trodden over if I had left without a quiet word. But next time, I will try to deal with matters on the pitch.
 
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So just to be clear, the attacker was affected? Lost possession of the ball or some such?

Don't forget the stepped approach permits you to skip any steps depending on the situation. Of course hindsight is 20-20 - and it may well be that booking the captain would have triggered more dissent.

I hear the rest of what you're saying - I'm certainly not one of those 'never talk to the manager' referees. You figured it would be a received discussion and you were right :)

Just sounds like a tricky match. i think all you can really do is see what you can change to put potential troublemakers in view.
 
Yes, thanks again for your sympathetic reading of this. I feared I might be scolded on here for abandoning my duties, but it really wasn't so clear cut. One player said aloud 'this is so intense' deep into the second half. I thought, 'tell me about it, player. I get these every other week in a league in which 80% of matches are decided by a 4-5 goal margin!'
I don't know how or if that makes me different from the other refs on this league.

I think you're right, though. You just have to put this down as a tough game where one side will feel you have manufactured two goals for the opposition (IDFK and PK) on perhaps borderline calls. On the penalty, you may think I could have played on to save myself the trouble, as it were. It wasn't one where he got a shot away and then I went back. He was tripped, putting him off balance slightly, but whatever I gave was going to produce questions against me.

One other thing (sorry):
How do you try to make sure one team doesn't think you're going with an appeal. One irate home player suggested I was guilty of such, but in most cases you and player have seen the same thing and it takes you a second longer to respond. I wouldn't say I'm so perfect as never to have been influenced when unsure, but how do you give the impression you're totally in control?
 
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SLI39 said:
One other thing (sorry):
How do you try to make sure one team doesn't think you're going with an appeal. One irate home player suggested I was guilty of such, but in most cases you and player have seen the same thing and it takes you a second longer to respond. I wouldn't say I'm so perfect as never to have been influenced when unsure, but how do you give the impression you're totally in control?
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It'll almost certainly go unappreciated, but try explaining that to the players. It's the honest answer. The only other method I can think of is to ignore appeals and give incorrect decisions. Tell them you'd rather take your time and give yourself the best possible chance of getting the right decision than panic and get it wrong.

Failing that, whip out a yellow early doors and tell them that by questioning your integrity they're putting themselves at risk of seeing red? I see there's a topic on 'What is dissent' on the new threads bit - I'll have a look through it in a minute but anything that questions your integrity is surely deserving of at least being dissent. Doing it early would (in theory) demonstrate to others that it's unacceptable to question your. Disagreeing with a decision is fine for me, but linking that to whether or not I'm being fair is where it can cross the line for me.
 
Just loudly tell them that you gave the decision because it WAS a foul or whatever......then if it happens again get the lemon out
 
If there is moaning about every decision, just come back with 'lads, you asked for consistency before the game, I'm doing my best to get them all wrong.Technically that's being consistent!' And SMILE.....
 
The moment you identify that 'chippy' comments live you mentioned above start to creep in, you need to take action.

The first advice I would give you is that you should be able to determine where the comments are coming from. If you genuinely have no idea then that points to a potential positioning / awareness problem, and something to ask for advice from someone who can watch you during a game to see what is happening.

When you've identified it's happening, the very next comment you hear, you need to call the guy in and make it very clear you're not standing for any more, from him or anyone else. Stepped approach as required. There's no explanation needed. Something along the lines of, "You play. Let me referee. Any more comments, and you've given me nowhere else to go". Use what works for you.

As an additional hint, unless it is 100% nailed-on, cast-iron, gold-plated, do NOT give back pass decisions. The one you describe seems 'plausible'. That's not enough for me. Far better to just get on with game.
 
Dissent needs to be dealt with early or it WILL spread - if players see one player get away with it they will undoubtedly join in and before you know it you have 22 players on your back. Others may well argue that I'm wrong here, but you don't need to use your cards early in the game to get a grip of dissent. The first time anyone starts to challenge your authority call him over and make it clear you won't allow that, hopefully this message will spread to all of the other players and they'll realise that you aren't going to let them have a go at you. Even if it doesn't, then as a minimum you have set the player up for a fall and if he so much as puts a toe out of line he can't complain as you warned him for all to see.
 
Thanks for further advice. Because I don't feel I need to hide this, as someone on the autistic spectrum (albeit not seriously disruptive on a day to day basis), communicating with anyone, let alone emotionally charged players, is not always my forte! However, in a refereeing context, it's important to convey confidence, and it's something I have been working on for several years. In fact, refereeing is in large part responsible for a degree of balance in that regard nowadays. Perhaps I do need to learn how to position myself better, but I would say it's less an awareness problem than a reluctance to isolate offenders and take action straight away. Sometimes players can no longer be blades of grass, but instead people to draw out of the crowd as one bursts the impersonal bubble.
It's funny that I came away thinking the two major calls reflected a willingness not to shy away from big decisions, and now I feel like I might have dropped two clangers! But that's just the nature of the profession: success is on a knife edge at all times.
 
SLI39 said:
It's funny that I came away thinking the two major calls reflected a willingness not to shy away from big decisions, and now I feel like I might have dropped two clangers!
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Oh I definitely wouldn't go that far. The penalty certainly sounds like a brave and correct call - as far as I can recall, I've only given two PKs where the player stays standing and it always causes someone's temper to rise. But you have to do it as a referee, otherwise we haven't got a leg to stand on when players start diving to win spot kicks.
 
See my thread about Sunday re dissent.

I gave umpteen warnings and STILL someone gets 2 yellows in 5 mins for dissent.

Just be consistent and try not to get into "victim" syndrome.

Yes, we all make mistakes, but dissent is wrong and not your fault
 
I watched a young referee at the weekend after my game, his was a slightly later kick off so stayed behind to see how he got on. He had a nailed on penalty that he gave, team scored and won 1-0 in the closing minute. He got abuse from the losing side and although only a couple of minutes left I saw his head drop.

Spoke to him after, he said his head dropped as he thought he had given the wrong call, turns out he didn't have as good a view as I did. Told him it was the right call and this made him feel a lot better. He asked how I dealt with the stick you sometimes get, told him the best advise I can give aside from what you are taught is no matter what decision you give at least 11 people will tell you it was wrong.
 
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