A&H

Thrown in goal scenario

santa sangria

santa sangria

RefChat Addict
Great incident from my mentor group this weekend.

Attacking throw in, thrown towards opponent’s goal.
Only GK between thrower and goal.
GK deliberately handles outside the box.

But we are interested in 3 possible refereeing scenarios and your logic, sanctions, re-start etc:

1) You whistle and then the ball goes into the goal
2) the ball goes into the goal (no whistle)
3) just the ball goes just wide (no whistle)

(And @one what if it was futsal?)
(And think extra hard about #1)
 
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santa sangria said:
Great incident from my mentor group this weekend.

Attacking throw in, thrown towards opponent’s goal.
Only GK between thrower and goal.
GK deliberately handles outside the box.

But we are interested in 3 possible refereeing scenarios and your logic, sanctions, re-start etc:

1) You whistle and then the ball goes into the goal
2) the ball goes into the goal (no whistle)
3) just the ball goes just wide (no whistle)

(And @one what if it was futsal?)
(And think extra hard about #1)
Click to expand...
1) DFK, YC (a goal can't have been denied if the ball went into the goal is my thinking)
2) Allow goal, YC (same-ish thinking as above)
3) DFK, RC (denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area))

Must have been a fun mentoring group :)
 
Pwizardo said:
1) DFK, YC (a goal can't have been denied if the ball went into the goal is my thinking)
2) Allow goal, YC (same-ish thinking as above)
3) DFK, RC (denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area))

Must have been a fun mentoring group :)
Click to expand...
What would you like the YC for P-wiz?
 
santa sangria said:
Great incident from my mentor group this weekend.

Attacking throw in, thrown towards opponent’s goal.
Only GK between thrower and goal.
GK deliberately handles outside the box.

But we are interested in 3 possible refereeing scenarios and your logic, sanctions, re-start etc:

1) You whistle and then the ball goes into the goal
2) the ball goes into the goal (no whistle)
3) just the ball goes just wide (no whistle)

(And @one what if it was futsal?)
(And think extra hard about #1)
Click to expand...
1) DFK. Whistle has gone. Need more info for sanction. Potential for YC, RC or nothing.
2) Goal, potential no sanction or YC.
3) No advantage, DFK, same as 1 for sanctions.
 
JamesL said:
1) DFK. Whistle has gone. Need more info for sanction. Potential for YC, RC or nothing.
2) Goal, potential no sanction or YC.
3) No advantage, DFK, same as 1 for sanctions.
Click to expand...
What info do you want chief?...

Throw in, heading for goal, handled outside the box by GK deliberately. still goes in to goal.
 
santa sangria said:
What info do you want chief?...

Throw in, heading for goal, handled outside the box by GK deliberately. still goes in to goal.
Click to expand...
Well there's a multitude of scenarios here ain't there. Location of other attackers/defenders, pace height of ball, how the handling occurs, pace added or taken out of ball. Probably loads more but no cut and dry answers available based of the information provided
 
JamesL said:
Well there's a multitude of scenarios here ain't there. Location of other attackers/defenders, pace height of ball, how the handling occurs, pace added or taken out of ball. Probably loads more but no cut and dry answers available based of the information provided
Click to expand...
No other attackers, defenders as stated.
Handling is deliberate by the GK outside the area.
Ball is heading towards goal (in 1 and 2).

It's a throw in. Can there be any sanctions here?
 
If there are no other attackers, then it cannot be DOGSO or SPA. A referee could decide that it was nonetheless generic USB and caution for the act. (It would not be a good choice by the R, but it would be supportable in Law ITOOTR. One could also argue for a caution for deliberately handling the ball to prevent a goal, but I don’t think that flies as there was no possible goal. The argument would be to rely on what IFAB said an R technically could caution for a handling just after the ball crossed the line, as the player was trying to prevent a goal. I thought that was a bad answer by IFAB, and I think it would be a further stretch to apply here.)
 
santa sangria said:
No other attackers, defenders as stated.
Handling is deliberate by the GK outside the area.
Ball is heading towards goal (in 1 and 2).

It's a throw in. Can there be any sanctions here?
Click to expand...
Not sure that is what you said actually. You said: "Only GK between thrower and goal."

That tells me nothing about the relative positions of the other players which has a bearing on the possible outcomes
 
JamesL said:
Not sure that is what you said actually. You said: "Only GK between thrower and goal."

That tells me nothing about the relative positions of the other players which has a bearing on the possible outcomes
Click to expand...
No other players involved. Count them out to keep it simple.
 
1: DFK attacking team. Nobody likely running onto the ball in the incident as described.

2: Play advantage and award the goal; like Peter Encklemann once upon a time.

3: DFK attacking team. There’s an argument for a corner kick having tried to play an advantage, but a harder sell on the field.

No further sanctions for 1 or 3 as there is no such offence as Denying an Obvious Corner Kick.
 
santa sangria said:
No other players involved. Count them out to keep it simple.
Click to expand...
1) DFK > no sanction.
2) Award goal > no sanction
3) DFK > advantage not accrued. Football expects handball to be penalised. Again, no sanction

No SPA or DOGSO is committed by the handball and in my opinion, option 2, it's not a failed attempt to stop a goal because no goal would be scored but for the touch.
 
I'll have a go. Assuming we only want mandatory sanctions. And assuming no whistle means either playing advantage or waiting to see if it ensues.

1. DFK. No sanction. No matter where the ball was heading. No goal can be scored directly from TI so a goal could not have been denied. No attackers so no SPA

2. Goal, no sanction.

3. Assuming you still have enough time (from advantage wait) to bring back for the free kick, DFK and no cards. Otherwise corner kick.

So my answers are pretty much the same as james'

Same decisions for Futsal.

One little twist. Combine the scenarios. Handles ball outside. No whistle. Ball is heading towards goal. Chases ball and handles again 5 yards further down. Now you whistle.
Case a. Second handling is outside PA
Case b. Second handling is inside PA
 
socal lurker said:
If there are no other attackers, then it cannot be DOGSO or SPA. A referee could decide that it was nonetheless generic USB and caution for the act. (It would not be a good choice by the R, but it would be supportable in Law ITOOTR. One could also argue for a caution for deliberately handling the ball to prevent a goal, but I don’t think that flies as there was no possible goal. The argument would be to rely on what IFAB said an R technically could caution for a handling just after the ball crossed the line, as the player was trying to prevent a goal. I thought that was a bad answer by IFAB, and I think it would be a further stretch to apply here.)
Click to expand...
I agree with this - a “showing disrespect” YC could be supportable, especially as ‘the laws can’t cover everything.’ And good citation there.

What about whistling just before the ball enters the goal? (Also for @one in futsal)
 
santa sangria said:
I agree with this - a “showing disrespect” YC could be supportable, especially as ‘the laws can’t cover everything.’ And good citation there.

What about whistling just before the ball enters the goal? (Also for @one in futsal)
Click to expand...
game stops on the whistle. Ref has egg on his face as he gives the FK, apologizing profusely for blowing the whistle too soon. (or in the case of an MLS referee, infamously pretend you didn’t blow the whistle even though clear on video (happened pre-VAR)
 
socal lurker said:
game stops on the whistle. Ref has egg on his face as he gives the FK, apologizing profusely for blowing the whistle too soon. (or in the case of an MLS referee, infamously pretend you didn’t blow the whistle even though clear on video (happened pre-VAR)
Click to expand...
What do the LotG say about stopping the game?

As I understand it, the referee decides exactly when the game is stopped. Not necessarily the moment of the whistle. There used to be more in the LotG about this. But I can’t find anything specific now. Is there?

The current LotG does say an accidental toot is a dropped ball. “If the referee blows the whistle in error and play stops, play is restarted with a dropped ball.” Hmm…

—-

Futsal has an even more specific line:

“If, during play, one of the referees sounds the whistle by mistake, the referees must stop the match if they consider that this action has interfered with play. If the referees stop the match, they must restart play with a dropped ball from the position of the ball when play was stopped, unless this was inside the defending team’s penalty area and the last team to touch the ball was the attacking team (see Law 8). If the sound of the whistle does not interfere with play, the referees give clear signals to play on.”

I think this means in scenario 1, goal (advantage, cumulative foul, kick off) is good here in futsal but what does @one think?
 
santa sangria said:
What about whistling just before the ball enters the goal?
Click to expand...
I think this should have explicitly said about the reason for the whistle to get the answer you want.

You can whistle because you have made a subjective decision, even if incorrect. Say in OP you think you are sending the keeper off (even if incorrect and the whistle is a mistake/error in law). This is a conscious decision to stop the game. It has to be a restart for whatever the decision was if you think it's the correct decision. For OP you would send the keeper off (in error of course) and DFK.

You can whistle, consciously, for a decision and then immediately after realize you have made a mistake in decision making. You can change your mind here but you can't un-stop the game after a conscious stoppage, i.e., you can not restart for an event that has not happened. Say you whistle to send keeper off because you think it's better than a goal. But then realize you can't send keeper off. The restart is still DFK. It's not a dropped ball or a goal. Another example is Whistling for offside too early where PIOP doesn't become active and another player scores. You can't allow goal or drop ball.

You can 'accidentally' or unintentionally whistle. Eg. breathe too hard while whistle in mouth (or R3 unintentionally touch buzzer button in Futsal). Futsal is clear on this but not so much for football. The expectation in football is game is stopped if you blow the whistle even unintentionally. Restart depends on the case. For OP for me, I'd go with @socal lurker , just apologize and give the DFK.

I don't like the wording in Futsal "by mistake". What does it mean? Laws say/imply you can change decision after you stop the game and before a restart. It doesn't say if stopping the game was a 'mistake' you have to drop ball. Let's say you forget which team running which way at the start of second half. Promising attack and when you can play advantage you blow to give a defensive free kick. This is a whistle by mistake but still a attacking free kick and not a dropped ball. So the Futsal scenario for me, it's only a goal if whistle/buzzer was unintentional, but not a conscious decision to stop game, even if it was an error.
 
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